[bksvol-discuss] Re: Page numbers

That is the feeling many of us have had for many years Evan, but frankly, 
nothing has changed so we have worked our way around it and forced the 
stripper to do what we want it to do.

Shelley L. Rhodes B.S. Ed, CTVI
and Judson, guiding golden
juddysbuddy@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Guide Dogs For the Blind Inc.
Graduate Alumni Association Board
www.guidedogs.com

Dog ownership is like a rainbow.
 Puppies are the joy at one end.
 Old dogs are the treasure at the other.
Carolyn Alexander

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Evan Reese" <mentat1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 11:49 AM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Page numbers


Why should the page number become part of the first paragraph in the html
version if it is part of the header if there is a blank line between the
page number and the first line of text?

Sorry for being a killjoy, but I couldn't help wondering while reading this
how many new volunteers might throw up their hands in despair and decide not
to validate at all.  I gotta remember how many things just to accommodate
the proclivities of the stripper and the html files?  I ggotta put blank
lines where?  How many?  I gotta put this thing in to prevent that?  I doubt
if I will remember all of it, and I've been here for months.

Didn't Monica just say something about validating not being a technical job?
I wouldn't know it from reading this.  Software is supposed to serve humans.
We shouldn't have to bend over backwards and jump through all these hoops to
accommodate it.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gerald Hovas" <GeraldHovas@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 8:30 AM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Page numbers


> Barbara,
>
> The Bookshare tools don't strip page numbers.  Some volunteers incorrectly
> came to this conclusion when they couldn't see them in K-1000.  However,
> just because they weren't able to see them in K-1000 doesn't mean that
> they
> were stripped.  The problem was due to Bookshare and KESI storing the page
> numbers differently in the NCX file because the previous DAISY standard
> didn't specifically state how to store them.  For proof that they weren't
> stripped, all you have to do is look at one of the BRF books or the HTML
> files which can be unpacked with the DAISY book.
>
> Now, that doesn't mean that page numbers might not be stripped by a
> volunteer who doesn't know what they are doing.  If they use either K-1000
> or OpenBook to strip the headers/footers automatically, then they'll strip
> the page numbers right along with the text since page numbers are part of
> either the header or the footer.  Some new volunteers even think they are
> supposed to strip page numbers to make the text flow more smoothly when
> reading with speech.
>
> Now to answer your question as to how to handle page numbers at the bottom
> of the page so that the Bookshare tools will handle them properly.
>
> * Leave a blank line before the page number as insurance to make sure the
> Stripper doesn't get confused about the page number being the footer.
> * Strip any text if it happens to be in the footer along with spaces and
> tabs to make the Stripper's job of recognizing the page number simple.
> There's no harm in doing this because if the Stripper recognizes the
> footer,
> then it will strip the text anyway.
> * Leave a blank line between the page number and the page break to prevent
> the page number from becoming part of the last paragraph in the HTML file
> that can be unpacked with the DAISY book.
>
> Here's a few more steps to make sure the book turns out well
>
> * Since the page numbers aren't part of the header, then strip the entire
> header to prevent any headers from being left in the book because the
> Stripper overlooks them due to their not being identical to the other
> headers.   Again,  there's no harm in doing this because if the Stripper
> recognizes the header, then it will strip it anyway.
> * If there are chapter headings in the book, then you'll want to create a
> header for the Stripper to strip on that page to prevent the chapter
> heading
> from being stripped.  I recommend using the title because I've seen
> someone
> use the word Header, and the Stripper left it in the book.  This was
> probably due to it being added to pages which shouldn't have a header.
> There would have been less confusion on the part of the reader, though, if
> the title had been used, and possibly less on the tool's part as well.
>
> Now for the other case where page numbers are part of the header, since
> some
> of the newer volunteers may be wondering what to do to prevent problems
> due
> to the tool known as the Stripper
>
> * Leave a blank line between the page number and the page break to prevent
> the page number from becoming part of the first paragraph in the HTML file
> that can be unpacked with the DAISY book.
> * Strip any text, spaces, and tabs which happen to be in the header to
> make
> the Stripper's job of recognizing the page number simple.  There's no harm
> in this since the Stripper will strip them anyway if it recognizes the
> header.
> * Do not put anything above the page number-including dashes, asterisks,
> or
> other symbols-because that will make that line the header, and page
> numbers
> must be in the header or footer in order for the tool to process them.
> BTW,
> if page numbers aren't allowed to be processed because volunteers add that
> extra line above the page number thinking they are preventing the page
> number from being stripped, then it will cause two sets of page numbers in
> the BRF and HTML files: the real page numbers which have now become part
> of
> the main text and the page numbers which the Stripper uses as a default
> because it couldn't find any page numbers, and the two sets may or may not
> agree depending on how the pages in the book  are numbered.
> * Leave a blank line after the page number as insurance to make sure the
> Stripper doesn't get confused about the page number being the header
> * If the book has chapter headings, then move the page number from the
> bottom of the page to the top of the page if the page number is included
> at
> the bottom of the page.  If the page with the chapter heading doesn't
> include a page number, then add one above the chapter heading.  Use the
> same
> guidelines as mentioned above for handling the page number if it were part
> of the header.  Adding the page number or moving it to the top of the page
> will prevent the Stripper from confusing the chapter heading with a header
> and stripping it.
>
> Here are a few examples of how pages should look for those who understand
> better from examples.  Just as a note, I'm using [Page Break] to represent
> a
> page break and a vertical ellipsis (three periods each on a line by
> itself),
> followed by Main Text, and another vertical ellipsis to represent the main
> text on the page since I don't want to copy a page from a book or make up
> a
> bunch of text, and because I want to keep the examples short.
>
> Example of a page with a chapter heading when the page numbers are
> normally
> at the top of the page
>
> [Page Break]
>
> 41
>
> CHAPTER THREE
>
> .
> .
> .
> Main Text
> .
> .
> .
>
> [Page Break]
>
> Example of a page with a chapter heading when the page numbers are always
> found at the bottom of the page
>
> [Page Break]
>
> The Pelican Brief
>
> Chapter 7
>
> .
> .
> .
> Main Text
> .
> .
> .
>
> [Page Break]
>
> Example of a page without a chapter heading when pages appear at the top
> of
> the page
>
> [Page Break]
>
> 80
>
> .
> .
> .
> Main Text
> .
> .
> .
>
> [Page Break]
>
> Example of a page without a chapter heading when pages appear at the
> bottom
> of the page
>
> [Page Break]
>
> .
> .
> .
> Main Text
> .
> .
> .
>
> 99
>
> [Page Break]
>
> HTH
>
> Gerald
>
> P.S.
>
> People,
>
> Yes,I know some of you use other methods to protect chapter headings, and
> I
> also know that some of the methods volunteers recommend don't actually
> work
> after all because I've looked into what works and what doesn't, so
> everyone
> please refrain from explaining how they do it to prevent confusion.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Gerald
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Barbara J
> Wagreich
> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 12:38 AM
> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Cc: Barbara J Wagreich
> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Page numbers
>
> Hi:
>
> I have a book of poems I wnat to submit.  the page nubmers are at the
> bottom of each page.  How do I enter the page nubmers so they won't get
> stripped out in the conversion process to daisy and braille formats?
>
> Also the back cover page has relevant info.  where do I insert this info?
> at the end of th e book?
>
> Thanks,
> Barbara Wagreich
>
>
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>

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