[bksvol-discuss] Re: OT: Fwd: Fw: Blind sight
- From: socly@xxxxxxxxx
- To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 16:21:22 -0500
Interesting. The brain truly is a marvelous thing, and we only studnerstand a
small percentage of how it works.
Cindy
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tiffany H. Jessen" <tjessen@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: OT: Fwd: Fw: Blind sight
> Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 16:25:56 -0400
>
>
> I agree. I began to lose my sight when I was 11. It went up and
> down until I was 16. Now I don't even have light perception, but in
> my dreams I can always see. In fact, I even see the people I met
> after blindness and have never seen before. Obviously I have no way
> to know if it's anywhere near right, but it's the same way I
> picture them when I am awake. I don't think about imagining it
> either. As I walk around my brain automatically pictures things and
> tells me things as if I'm actually seeing. Obviously I'm not
> psychic so it's not always perfect, but I do have good spatial
> orientation for directions, locating things, judging sizes, and
> distances. Not having to do with dreams, but probably also related
> to my having sight in the past, in school I was much much much
> stronger with the maths and physical sciences rather than English
> and history. This is contrary to the usual blind student.
> What can I say.. I'm weird.
> Tiff
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Marshall" <geom4@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 1:12 PM
> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: OT: Fwd: Fw: Blind sight
>
>
> > Hi Cindy:
> > Just a note on this subject:
> > I lost my vision at 39 years old, my dreams usially are visual,
> > so I think it is the way the brain works.
> > George R. Marshall
> > geom4@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cindy" <popularplace@xxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 2:15 PM
> > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: OT: Fwd: Fw: Blind sight
> >
> >
> >> Interesting, Sheri. So spending some time, like a few
> >> days or week with contacts or a tight blindfold or
> >> eyes shut, wouldn't give a sighted person the same
> >> experience, or at least something of an idea? I think
> >> there was an actor who did that to prepare for a role.
> >>
> >>
> >> I do find it difficult to imagine dreams without
> >> visuals, although I have a good imagination. But
> >> Louise and Allison have given me explanations that I
> >> begin to understand--sensations of where one is, like,
> >> as Louise said, where she used to live, and people's
> >> voices, and perhaps the sensation that someone is
> >> present. I think I can begin to understand. Perhaps
> >> it's a little like deja vu--when we have the feeling,
> >> even though awake and seeing something not related,
> >> what we've been in a place or a situation before.
> >>
> >> Cindy
> >>
> >> Cindy
> >>
> >> --- Sheri Wells-Jensen <swellsj@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi, Cindy,
> >>>
> >>> When ever I teach a class of creative writers,
> >>> there's always one student
> >>> who come sup to me after class to ask something
> >>> like: "What's it really like
> >>> to be you." I used to try to answer this question.
> >>> then, I realized it was
> >>> impossible. Now, I ask the student to explain what
> >>> it's like to be him/her
> >>> first. Before I can contrast my experience, I really
> >>> have to know what it's
> >>> really like experientially to perceive objects at a
> >>> distance and use that
> >>> experience as information about the environment and
> >>> act on that information
> >>> without conscious thought. I can't isolate any
> >>> 'real' difference between
> >>> sighted people's experience and my own
> >>> unless I know what two things I'm contrasting. I
> >>> don't think you can ask
> >>> someone who had significant sight and lost it either
> >>> since having had sight
> >>> would effect how you process information.
> >>> Maybe, there is some wayof perceiving reality that
> >>> all blind people share
> >>> that is fundamentally different than sighted
> >>> experience, but the older I
> >>> get, the more I doubt that.
> >>> If there really were some truly interesting
> >>> fundamental difference, we'd
> >>> have a lot more trouble getting along with you'all
> >>> than we usually do!
> >>> *smile*
> >>> My students, by the way, give up the task of
> >>> explaining *their* reality
> >>> pretty quickly! they're looking for something
> >>> exotic. I always feel just a
> >>> little sad to have to disappoint them!
> >>>
> >>> FWIW,
> >>>
> >>> Sheri W-J
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cindy" <popularplace@xxxxxxxxx>
> >>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 11:21 PM
> >>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: OT: Fwd: Fw: Blind
> >>> sight
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> > Thanks, Allison, for the info.
> >>> >
> >>> > Yes, I would not like to feel pain in my dreams. I
> >>> > don't think I feel in my dreams--except
> >>> occasionally
> >>> > emotions, which last for a while when I wake up.
> >>> And
> >>> > occasionally smells and sounds, but I think they
> >>> enter
> >>> > my dreams from the outside.
> >>> >
> >>> > Cindy
> >>> >
> >>> > --- Allison Mervis <allisonfm@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> >> I dream entirely in sensation and sound. It's
> >>> like I
> >>> >> don't have to see in my
> >>> >> dreams in order to know where I'm going. I can
> >>> also
> >>> >> feel pain while
> >>> >> dreaming, and a lot of people I've talked to
> >>> can't.
> >>> >> Sometimes I wish I
> >>> >> couldn't.
> >>> >> Allison
> >>> >>
> >>> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "mickey" <micka@xxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> >> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> >> Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 9:51 PM
> >>> >> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: OT: Fwd: Fw: Blind
> >>> >> sight
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> >I dream more in sounds, Cindy. When I was little
> >>> >> and could see more light,
> >>> >> >sometimes I'd see things like flame, but
> >>> whatever I
> >>> >> saw had to be bright.
> >>> >> >But I've heard people say something to me, and
> >>> it's
> >>> >> made me wake up. I also
> >>> >> >dream some in sensation.
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > Some research has been done regarding sleep of
> >>> >> blind people. Some of us
> >>> >> > move our fingers in REM sleep, as you would
> >>> your
> >>> >> eyes.
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > Mickey Prahin
> >>> >> > micka@xxxxxxxxxx
> >>> >> > MSN: mickeylundgren@xxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> >> > Phone: (614) 670-4011
> >>> >> > Check out Bob's new CD at
> >>> >> > http://www.boballentrio.com
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Cindy"
> >>> <popularplace@xxxxxxxxx>
> >>> >> > To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>;
> >>> >> <bookshare-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> >> > Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 1:57 PM
> >>> >> > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] OT: Fwd: Fw: Blind
> >>> sight
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >> This article relates, subject-wise, to one
> >>> that I
> >>> >> >> forwarded a while back--vision being given to
> >>> a
> >>> >> man
> >>> >> >> who was blind fo forty years, having lost his
> >>> >> sight at
> >>> >> >> age three.
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >> The article mentions dreams. I've wondered,
> >>> but
> >>> >> have
> >>> >> >> refrained from asking, what the dreams of
> >>> blind
> >>> >> people
> >>> >> >> are like. Does the brain create pictures and
> >>> >> shapes
> >>> >> >> from the various sensations you have during
> >>> the
> >>> >> day? I
> >>> >> >> hope you don't mind my asking.
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >> Cindy
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >> --- Louise <bookscanner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >>> From: "Louise" <bookscanner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> >> >>> To: "Louise Gourdoux"
> >>> >> <bookscanner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> >> >>> Subject: Fw: Blind sight
> >>> >> >>> Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 08:05:00 -0500
> >>> >> >>>
> >>> >> >>>
> >>> >> >>>
> >>> >> >>> The Guardian (UK)
> >>> >> >>> Wednesday, May 17, 2006
> >>> >> >>>
> >>> >> >>> Blind sight
> >>> >> >>>
> >>> >> >>> By Sue Blackmore
> >>> >> >>>
> >>> >> >>> Restoring vision to the blind sounds like a
> >>> >> miracle
> >>> >> >>> - but for the patients
> >>> >> >>> in question, it can seem like a nightmare.
> >>> >> >>>
> >>> >> >>> What is it like for the blind to see again?
> >>> You
> >>> >> >>> might think it would be a
> >>> >> >>> delight, with the previously handicapped
> >>> person
> >>> >> >>> opening their eyes to a
> >>> >> >>> wondrous world of colour, depth, movement and
> >>> >> faces,
> >>> >> >>> and a new and better
> >>> >> >>> life. But that (if you are a normal seeing
> >>> >> person)
> >>> >> >>> is probably because you
> >>> >> >>> think of vision as an easy task for the brain
> >>> -
> >>> >> >>> after all, it seems so easy.
> >>> >> >>>
> >>> >> >>> This is far from the truth. In fact, vision
> >>> >> takes
> >>> >> >>> vast brain power and a lot
> >>> >> >>> of it is learned, so the newly-sighted have a
> >>> >> tough
> >>> >> >>> job on. And the few
> >>> >> >>> previously documented cases are mostly sad
> >>> >> stories
> >>> >> >>> of fear, depression, and
> >>> >> >>> even suicide.
> >>> >> >>>
> >>> >> >>> This week I was lucky enough to be invited,
> >>> >> along
> >>> >> >>> with a small group of
> >>> >> >>> vision scientists, to meet a blind man made
> >>> to
> >>> >> see -
> >>> >> >>> this time by the
> >>> >> >>> wonders of corneal stem cell transplantation.
> >>> >> Mike
> >>> >> >>> May, a Californian who
> >>> >> >>> became blind at the age of three, had his
> >>> sight
> >>> >> >>> restored in one eye over
> >>> >> >>> forty years later. One of the organisers was
> >>> >> Richard
> >>> >> >>> Gregory, who did
> >>> >> >>> classic research in the 1960s with patient,
> >>> SB.
> >>> >> >>>
> >>> >> >>> Our questions ranged from dreams and
> >>> imagination
> >>> >> to
> >>> >> >>> how to cope with traffic
> >>> >> >>> and sports, but among the most fascinating
> >>> >> things we
> >>> >> >>> learned was how
> >>> >> >>> overwhelming the visual world is for someone
> >>> who
> >>> >> is
> >>> >> >>> not used to it, and how
> >>> >> >>> much sighted people take for granted their
> >>> >> ability
> >>> >> >>> to ignore it. For Mike,
> >>> >> >>> looking out of his high up hotel window means
> >>> >> seeing
> >>> >> >>> the teeming cars as
> >>> >> >>> full size cars, while knowing that somehow he
> >>> >> ought
> >>> >> >>> to see them as smaller.
> >>> >> >>> He described the difference from his previous
> >>> >> world
> >>> >> >>> in which he knew the
> >>> >> >>> cars were there but was not bombarded with
> >>> >> details
> >>> >> >>> of colour, shape, number,
> >>> >> >>> and direction.
> >>> >> >>>
> >>> >> >>> Amazingly, Mike was an expert skier while
> >>> blind,
> >>> >> >>> following a guide who
> >>> >> >>> called out instructions. He described to us
> >>> the
> >>> >> joy
> >>> >> >>> of seeing mountains
> >>> >> >>> (when he could work out that was what he was
> >>> >> seeing)
> >>> >> >>> and the confusion of
> >>> >> >>> skiing with sight. Trees were dark and
> >>> obviously
> >>> >> to
> >>> >> >>> be avoided, but shadows
> >>> >> >>> were dark too, and hence very scary. It made
> >>> me
> >>> >> >>> reflect on how valuable is
> >>> >> >>> our ability not to be distracted by shadows.
> >>> >> Indeed
> >>> >> >>> he finds skiing and
> >>> >> >>> crossing the road more frightening with
> >>> vision
> >>> >> than
> >>> >> >>> he used to do without.
> >>> >> >>>
> >>> >> >>> He talked about synaesthesia too. While many
> >>> >> people
> >>> >> >>> see numbers or sounds as
> >>> >> >>> having their own colour, for Mike it was
> >>> Braille
> >>> >> >>> letters that were
> >>> >> >>> coloured - and, as he put it "people thought
> >>> I
> >>> >> was
> >>> >> >>> nuts". Most strange for
> >>> >> >>> him are faces which seem to have so much more
> >>> >> detail
> >>> >> >>> than he had expected
> >>> >> >>> from touching them all his life - but whether
> >>> he
> >>> >> >>> sees and recognises them in
> >>> >> >>> anything like the way normally sighted people
> >>> >> do, we
> >>> >> >>> could not tell.
> >>> >> >>>
> >>> >> >>> I realised how very difficult it is to ask
> >>> >> >>> meaningful questions and
> >>> >> >>> understand the answers when you are talking
> >>> to
> >>> >> >>> someone whose experience is
> >>> >> >>> so different from your own - and this is, of
> >>> >> course,
> >>> >> >>> what makes Mike so
> >>> >> >>> special. But should I go further? Perhaps I
> >>> >> should
> >>> >> >>> not be asking what it's
> >>> >> >>> like for the blind to see, but what it's like
> >>> >> for
> >>> >> >>> anyone to see. For
> >>> >> >>> scientists are far from agreement over this,
> >>> and
> >>> >> I
> >>> >> >>> have agonised about the
> >>> >> >>> nature of conscious vision for years.
> >>> >> >>>
> >>> >> >>> So look around you now. What is it like to
> >>> see?
> >>> >> >>>
> >>> >> >>>
> >>> >> >>>
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >
> >>>
> >> http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/sue_blackmore/2006/05/what_is_it_like_fo
> >>> >> >>> r_the_blind.html
> >>> >> >>>
> >>> >> >>>
> >>> >> >>>
> >>> >> >>>
> >>> >> >>>
> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> >>> >> >>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> >>> >> >>> Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database:
> >>> 268.6.0/342 -
> >>> >> >>> Release Date: 5/17/2006
> >>> >> >>>
> >>> >> >>>
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >>
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