[bksvol-discuss] Re: OK, gang, got a weird one!

  • From: "Chela Robles" <cdrobles693@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 09:03:58 -0700

LOL!
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Donna Goodin 
  To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 8:54 AM
  Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: OK, gang, got a weird one!


  I realize this, just didn’t figure the list needed a lesson in Historical 
linguistics.

  Donna

   

  From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx
  Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 11:49 AM
  To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: OK, gang, got a weird one!

   

  At the risk of being pedantic, I feel compelled to point out that you are not 
really talking about Old English. Old English, otherwise known as Anglo-Saxon, 
was spoken for about a 500 year period up until the Norman invasion of 1066. 
The Normans, being contemptuous of the English, tried to destroy their culture, 
including their language. They were unsuccessful, but in the process they did 
have a profound effect on the language, thus ushering in the linguistic period 
known as Middle English. Modern English evolved out of Middle English and is 
usually said to have come into existence at about the time of the Renaissance 
and Reformation. That would mean that Shakespeare wrote in Modern English, 
early Modern English, but still Modern English. Eighteenth century English 
would be solidly Modern English. That does not mean that the language does not 
continue to evolve, though, and a difference can be definitely seen between 
eighteenth century English and current English. In fact, the difference between 
Shakespearean English and current English is so great that I tend to think that 
it is getting about time to put another division in there somewhere. However, 
until that is done, Old English refers to something that is effectively a 
foreign language. At least, I doubt that if a current speaker of English could 
hear a first millenium speaker of Anglo-Saxon that he or she could understand 
what was being said.

                                                            "If you tremble 
with indignation at every injustice then you are a comrade of mine." Che 
Guevara     

               The Militant: http://www.themilitant.com/txtindex.shtml 
Pathfinder Press: http://www.pathfinderpress.com
  Granma International: http://granma.cu/ingles/index.html
               _

  table with 2 columns and 6 rows
  Subj: 
  [bksvol-discuss] Re: OK, gang, got a weird one!   
  Date: 
  7/14/2009 7:12:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time  
  From: 
  goodindo@xxxxxxx  
  Reply-to: 
  bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx  
  To: 
  bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx  
  Sent from the Internet 
  (Details) 
  table end

  Hi bob,

  There's a difference between changing thee and thou to you, versus 
differently printied letters to the letter that they actually represent.  In 
the first
  case, you're going from old to modern English.  There are editions of many 
older texts--including shakespeare--that are modernized in that way to make
  for easier reading for younger students and lay people.  But a scholar would 
never use a modernized text in his or her research. In the case of the letter
  s that looks like an F, no one, either modern or period would have pronounced 
the letter as an f.  No one for example would have said fifter rather than
  sister.  The issue in this case has to do with how letters were printed, 
rather than there actually being a different letter and/or pronunciation.  So
  to leave the F as an F would actually misrepresent the text in a way.
  Best,
  Donna 

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Bob <rwiley@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 2:08 AM
  To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: OK, gang, got a weird one!

  That's a good question Mike.

  I would opt for literal translation of the book, perhaps some transcriber 
  notes might help.

  Someone might be using these books for research where accuracy is important 
  It's kind of like someone scanning Shakespeare and saying "all those thees 
  and thous don't sound like English, so I changed them to your and you."

  Just my take on it.

  Bob

  "You know you're getting old when you stoop to tie your shoelaces and wonder 
  what else you could do while you're down there." George Burns.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: "Mike" <mlsestak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 8:58 PM
  Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: OK, gang, got a weird one!

  >I don't know about Spanish, but I have some books of early American essays 
  >where a double s looked like a sort of stretched out double f (and I think 
  >there were some other cases where an individual s would have the stretched 
  >out f).  I was intrigurd so I went to an online forum on typography and 
  >asked about these letters.  The folks on the forum said, yes, that is how 
  >such things were printed in the U.S. at that time.  The same was true for 
  >German, but there the double s eventually morphed into the letter that 
  >looks like a Greek beta.  At least that's what I was told.  The real puzzle 
  >here, since many bookshare readers use speech, should the text look right, 
  >or should it sound right.  I don't think there is a perfect answer here 
  >(though I like the "if it's good enough for a dissertation...").
  >
  > Misha
  >
  > Rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx wrote:
  >> I don't think it was universal. Germanic script, even though using a 
  >> Roman alphabet, was significantly different. English, even though it was 
  >> a Germanic language itself, used a Latinate script as a hangover from the 
  >> Norman conquest. Also, that s instead of an f was not really an s. It 
  >> looked very similar to an s and I imagine that might have something to do 
  >> with it being changed, but if you could see it you would be able to tell 
  >> it from an s. I did not make a habit of looking at antiquated English 
  >> scripts before I lost my eyesight, so I don't remember about the u and v, 
  >> but I would suspect that that u was not quite a u either. That could be 
  >> settled, though, by someone with eyesight just taking a look at it and 
  >> telling us.
  >>
  >>                                                           "If you tremble 
  >> with indignation at every injustice then you are a comrade of mine." Che 
  >> Guevara
  >>              The Militant: http://www.themilitant.com/txtindex.shtml 
  >> <http://wwww.themilitant.com>Pathfinder Press: 
  >> http://www.pathfinderpress.com
  >> Granma International: http://granma.cu/ingles/index.html
  >>              _
  >>
  >> table with 2 columns and 6 rows
  >> Subj: [bksvol-discuss] Re: OK, gang, got a weird one!   Date: 7/13/2009 
  >> 3:50:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time  From: kimfri11@xxxxxxxxxxx  Reply-to: 
  >> bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx  To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx  Sent from 
  >> the Internet
  >> (Details) table end
  >>
  >> Hi, gang, Just a comment from Kim here. During the seventeenth century, 
  >> the word "wave" would be spelled W-A-u-e. I also noticed that in the 
  >> eighteenth
  >> century, the letter S would be written with a letter F. Apparently what 
  >> happened with old Spanish affected Early modern English as well. H'mm! I 
  >> wonder
  >> if this orthography was universal throughout western Europe? Regards, Kim 
  >> aka Ellinder.
  >>
  >> 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  >>
  >> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  >> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Donna Goodin
  >> Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 11:09 AM
  >> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  >> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] OK, gang, got a weird one!
  >>
  >> Hi all,
  >> I’m working on The Lady in Blue by Javier Sierra.  At the end of the book 
  >> is a document written in old Spanish.  Some of the “abnormalities” are 
  >> standard
  >> orthographic conventions of the period, things like using the letter u 
  >> where in modern Spanish there would be a V.  others are the result of the 
  >> font. So, for instance,  the letter S looks like an F.  This also is 
  >> typical of period texts.  My question: Should I correct/modernize it, or 
  >> should I leave
  >> it?  One option would be to correct font issues, but leave the period 
  >> orthography intact.   There is an English translation following the 
  >> Spanish text.
  >> I appreciate any input.
  >> Thanks,
  >>
  >> Donna
  >>
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