[bksvol-discuss] Re: Inserting Page Numbers in Word

That's an interesting question Virginia, and, like Mayrie, I don't really
have a specific resource for you to go to, and I'm not sure that
understanding the various files would be helpful. However, I'd like to take
a stab at answering your question from a user's perspective.

Many of us use Braille to read the books you scan for us. But it's Braille
generated on, and by, a computer. Therefore, for my purposes, it's similar
to speech, which is what the rest of us use, and which is a different way of
presenting information  from the way you usually get information.

Basically, the way you get your information is in frames. It can be one
computer screen at a time, or one page at a time, but the page and the
screen are one frame view of the whole book. You can take an entire screen
to present a beautiful picture. Or you can split up the frame to have some
text a picture, then some more text. Your view of the book is one page or
screen at a time. You read the first page, then the next page until you read
the last page.

Our view of the same book is one word at a time. Generally, we start at the
beginning word followed by the next word until we reach the last word. Let's
say we are reading a book with footnotes at the bottom of the page. Now,
unless we are researchers or students, we don't really care about the
footnotes. So you read along until you see a line that tells you that here
is where we are going to explain all those trashy numbers that kept
interrupting your reading on this page, so you turn the page and continue
reading. From our perspective, we may or may not hear the line, but, somehow
we know that we've reached the footnotes. But we don't turn the page, we
just remember the last word and turn our minds off while the speech or
Braille continues to pour the information into our ears or fingers. We don't
turn the page, the computer does that for us, and suddenly we are back to
reading, and hopefully we've remembered the last good word on the previous
page, or the first sentence won't make any sense.

Let me give you another example. Let's suppose that you are reading along
and you reach some type of tabular information, say a calendar. You might
take the time to look up when your birthday is, but, you certainly don't
read the whole calendar. We do, we have no choice, unless we want to bother
to tell the computer to skip down a couple of lines and check to see if the
text makes sense yet, and keep skipping down until we hear text that makes
sense again. This is why I say that you get your information in frames,
while we get it in words.

When you see highlighted or bolded text, you may say, "Hey, this looks
important." Generally, we don't, because speech nor Braille takes into
account things like bolded or highlighted text. It certainly doesn't care
about various fonts. It just cares about what the next word is.

Anyway, I hope this has been helpful, or even makes sense.

Keep those interesting questions coming in.

Bob


----- Original Message ----- From: "Mayrie ReNae" <mayrierenae@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 8:28 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Inserting Page Numbers in Word


Hi Virginia,

I understand your dilemma perfectly.  I don't have the information
that you need.  Perhaps someone else can direct you to somewhere you can
go.

A brf file would be completely unintelligible to you. Brf is
braille. So looking at it would look like, dots if you saw anything at
all.

Xml is very much like html, the kind of text that you see using
internet explorer.

I know this isn't very helpful.  Frustrating, isn't it?  All I can
say, is trust me.  And that just isn't what you want.  Sorry.

Mayrie



-----Original Message-----
From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Virginia Tallman
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 6:22 PM
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Inserting Page Numbers in Word

Mayrie

Thank you for this information. I think what I am lacking as a sighted
volunteer is knowing how these books look in other formats.  I think if we
understood xml and brf file format, it may make it easier. Is there a
place
we could find this out.  It would be helpful for me at least to see what
these files look like. I can not download books because I do not have a
disability, but are there other places to find information on the other
formats.

Virginia

-----Original Message-----
From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Mayrie ReNae
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 3:32 PM
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Inserting Page Numbers in Word

Hi Virginia,

There is a lot of confusion about the stripper.  I have discussed
page numbers and the stripper in depth with Jake, a guy seriously in the
know about Bookshare's tools.  Here is what I know.

The formatting of a page that you and I have described is the one
that works best.  This is because without the blank lines surrounding both
the page number and the page break, the page numbers will end up on the
first line of text on each page, not on a line of their own. This has the
most effect on the xml files, where text remains very much as you see it
in
rtf files.

This next part is what causes confusion. The stripper does, in fact,
remove page numbers.  It does not, however, eat them.  It moves them to
what
is essentially a table of contents kind of file which daisy readers use to
navigate properly by page and numbers pages properly. The page numbers are
also placed properly in  brf files effectively only when the format of
page
layout is used that we have discussed.

Do you know that when you're removing headers, if the page number
appears on the same line of text as the author or title of the book that
you
do not need to remove the entire line and reinsert the page number?  You
can
simply remove the text on the line excluding the page number. This keeps
you
from having to insert page numbers.

Hope this helps some.  What you describe as your page format is truly the
proven best way to set up a page.  I did not discover this.  It had been
messed about with long before I became a volunteer and I am only passing
along what other very careful people discovered through trial and error.

Mayrie



-----Original Message-----
From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Virginia Tallman
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 12:53 PM
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Inserting Page Numbers in Word

To everyone

The topic of where and how to put in page numbers has been very helpful
and
if someone knows an easy way of doing it, I hope they will share. I too am
a
new scanner and have to admit I have added numbers in a variety of ways. I
remove the headers that appear in the book such as title and page number
on
every page.
On the last book, I tried what was described earlier this week.. ie a page
break, blank line, page number, blank line and then page text.   I did
this
by hand because Word will insert page numbers in the header or footer
only.
What is unclear to me is whether the stripper will take out all these
numbers that I put in by hand or not.

Virginia Tallman

-----Original Message-----
From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Christina
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 12:30 PM
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Inserting Page Numbers in Word

Hi, everyone.
I'm currently scanning a book that has page numbers at the bottom of the
page.  I think this is more difficult when navigating through a book and I
have to move the numbers to the top for the beginnings of chapters anyway.
I may as well move all of the numbers to the top so it's less confusing
for
people who will read it.
I can delete all of the page numbers from the bottom of the pages but I'm
wondering if there's an easier way to both delete the numbers and to
insert
them at the top, rather than doing them all individually.
I'm using JAWS 7.1 and Word 2002.
I know I can select the option to "insert page numbers."  But, when I do
this, JAWS doesn't read them so I'm worried that they won't appear in the
copy I submit to Bookshare.
Any help/advice?
Christina

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