[bksvol-discuss] Re: Are volunteers really that important anymore?

I use the .brf format because I read books on my somewhat oudated but 
still-working well Bookport.

I don't use the daisy format only because I have never been successful at 
opening the files.  I have not tried though since the new site came out and 
books are zipped.

Lori C.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bob 
  To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 4:28 PM
  Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Are volunteers really that important anymore?


  Good question Cindy.
  Some folks use Braille, especially with a Braille display.

  Others use the daisy format to listen to books. 

  For example, I don't have a Braille display, but I do have a program called 
Kurzweil which can translate either Braille or daisy to speech. I usually use 
the daisy format because, unlike Braille, there are codes so I can move from 
chapter to chapter, if they are formatted correctly.

  Bob
  “We know the future will outlast all of us, but I believe that all of us will 
live on in the future we make,”
  Senator Edward M. Kennedy 
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Cindy 
    To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
    Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 5:40 PM
    Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Are volunteers really that important anymore?


          I'm curious. Don't blind people use Daisy as well as or instead of 
Braille? I was under the  impression  (possibly the mis-impression) that that 
was how people  listened to the books on bookshare

          Cindy

          Wish List (i.e., books wanted added to the collection) and 
books-being-scanned list available at sites below



          Wish List: https://wiki.benetech.org/display/BSO/Bookshare+Wish+List

          Books Being Scanned List: 
https://wiki.benetech.org/display/BSO/Books+Being+Scanned+List

          --- On Thu, 8/27/09, Denise Thompson <deniset@xxxxxxx> wrote:


            From: Denise Thompson <deniset@xxxxxxx>
            Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Are volunteers really that important 
anymore?
            To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
            Date: Thursday, August 27, 2009, 2:37 PM


            Judy

            I'm behind the times. I didn't realize BS had broadened it's focus. 
I'm glad if it benefits you. I just don't want people who are blind to get lost 
in the process since that was the original reason for BS's existance. Right now 
all I know is that its getting harder for us to contribute. Probably we've gone 
about as far as we can with this discussion on the list. Hopefully BS staff are 
listening and will consider what has been said.

            Denise



            At 12:38 PM 8/27/2009, you wrote:
            > Denise, you asked about who is benefiting from all the changes.  
I can certainly understand your frustration. smile
            > 
            > I think that many of the the changes are coming about because 
Bookshare's members are expanding to include more disabled individuals like 
myself who are fully sighted but have other serious disabilities that prevent 
us from reading printed books.
            > 
            > A bookshare book that "sounds" fine to a blind individual is 
often virtually unreadable to a sighted disabled person who relies on visually 
reading the book from their computer screen.
            > 
            > Imagine listening to a book where the narrator is randomly 
shouting one word, whispering the next, or stopping in the middle of a sentence 
then starting again as if it were a new sentence. It would be an unpleasant 
experience to have to read books if this was the norm.
            > 
            > That's the equivalent of what it's like to visually read a book 
that hasn't had the formatting of a book cleaned up in the way that's now being 
suggested. smile.
            > 
            > Things in written text that don't make a difference to a blind 
reader make an enormous difference to a sighted disabled reader.  For example, 
having the chapter titles in larger fonts makes a huge difference in 
readability for visual navigation, too, not just for DAISY navigation.
            > 
            > One thing that doesn't make much difference to me at least, 
however, is the inclusion of images in fiction books, as least those that are 
geared towards a young adult or adult audience. They're nice to have, sort of 
like having a narrator who can speak in different accents for different 
characters in a book, but not necessary.  smile.  The same might be true of 
mostly-picture-books for children, but I can't speak to that.
            > 
            > I hope that gives at peek into why I believe some of the changes 
are happening.  smile.
            > 
            > Judy s.
            > 
            > 
            > Denise Thompson wrote:
            >> I think we have noticed it, but no one right now is prepared to 
deal with it since it was once the foundation of the organization itself. It 
was one of the big draws in the beginning which led to many news stories and 
funding.
            >> The other issue for me is who is benefitting from all the 
changes. I mean the changes in terms of the correct preciseness of books 
scanned now. Certainly phe push to get rid of garbled text and scannos is 
wonderful and can easily be done today with impprooved OCR software. The other 
things though I wonder. It's true that I read in the Daisy format very seldom. 
Mostly I quickly convert my books to text and put them on my phone to read. 
When I'm listening to a book, it sounds exactly the same to me if it has 
paragraph marks at the end of each line or double paragraph marks for real 
paragraphs. It sounds the same if chapter titles are in 16 point font or in 12 
point. The only real factor that affects me as a blind person listening to the 
book is the cleanness of the scan. I know that the other factors mentioned work 
better in a Daisy translation and create better divisions on a daisy player. 
Perhaps for text books this is more important, but for reading for pleasure, it 
makes no difference in listening, but makes a whole lot of difference in 
scanning, proofing and getting a book accepted into the library.
            >> My last thought on this is a concern about pictures. I foresee a 
time when people who are blind will no longer be able to scan because it will 
become important that the pictures be included. Now I go through the new books 
and there is the added choice of downloading daisy with images. In the last 
book I scanned I was aware there were some pictures, but I'm not able to really 
deal with them because I can't tell how over all they are affecting the page 
lay out. I deleted them when I knew one was there. I knew one was there 
primarily by accident if it was at the top of the page as I checked for a 
paragraph mark I would be told a picture was there. I don't know if I got them 
all or if some still remained. The book was accepted, but I don't know what the 
proofer had to do in order to make that happened. I may not be expressing 
myself well, but its almost now as if we're creating books that would pass in 
the sighted world with all the same bells and whistles. It seems that maybe 
we're loosing sight of the mission a bit. But, again, I guess if the books can 
be done with all the bells and whistles more quickly without us and we still 
get the benefit of the greater numbers, maybe it doesn't matter.
            >> Denise
            >> 
            >> 
            >> At 10:36 AM 8/27/2009, you wrote:
            >>> If I had a stack of those gay and lesbian books on hand I can 
imagine that I might send them off to Bookshare and I might be out the postage 
and the cost of the books if I had bought them, but I would also be out many 
hours of volunteer labor to get them into the collection. I am not particularly 
interested in children's picture books, so I have not downloaded any, but I 
would think that outsourcers could handle them. I think that Pavi, in fact, 
said that the more difficult books have priority for being outsourced. The main 
thing I have noticed, though, is that the proportion of books added to the 
collection by means other than volunteers is now considerably greater than the 
proportion added by volunteers and that proportion is growing. Also, a good 
many books already in the collection by means of volunteers are being replaced 
by other means. Furthermore, the proportion that are being added by volunteers 
could , in most cases, be done faster and just as easily or more easily, by 
those other means. No one has mentioned it. In fact, the Bookshare staff is 
proceeding away with more and more innovations for volunteers. What I was 
really wondering is whether volunteering is becoming obsolete and nobody has 
noticed it.
            >>> 
            >>> 
            >>> "Can a nation be free if it oppresses other nations? It 
cannot." Vladimir Lenin
            >>> 
            >>>              The Militant: http://www.themilitant.com 
<http://wwww.themilitant.com>Pathfinder Press: http://www.pathfinderpress.com
            >>> Granma International: http://granma.cu/ingles/index.html
            >>>              _
            >>> 
            >>> table with 2 columns and 6 rows
            >>> Subj:Â
            >>> [bksvol-discuss] Re: Are volunteers really that important 
anymore?  Â
            >>> Date:Â
            >>> 8/27/2009 4:25:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time Â
            >>> From:Â
            >>> rwiley@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Â
            >>> Reply-to:Â
            >>> bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Â
            >>> To:Â
            >>> bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Â
            >>> Sent from the Internet
            >>> (Details)Â
            >>> table end
            >>> 
            >>> Roger, this is an excellent summary of some of the things I 
have also been thinking.Â
            >>> 
            >>> When I first started with bookshare a couple of years ago, 
there were tons of books whose rating was fair, and in most cases that 
designation was kind.
            >>> But, the books were available, and for a group starving for 
reading material, they were great to have. Â
            >>> 
            >>> However, our tastes--and our tolerances--have improved. Where 
once we would accept day-old bread because we were starving, we now want 
freshly baked goods.
            >>> (Wow, I must be hungry).Â
            >>> 
            >>> So, I think your comments about the changing role of the 
volunteer are right on target. There will always be a need for volunteers to do 
the specialty books
            >>> (such as children's books with pictures), and books of special 
interest. I can't imagine NLS having a whole category of gay and lesbian books, 
nor can
            >>> I imagine the department of education wanting their money going 
toward that end. (I'm not being critical, just can't imagine it happening.) 
But, we volunteers
            >>> can make it happen. We can also put books in the collection 
from those publishers who won't cooperate with us (after all, we have the law 
on our side).Â
            >>> 
            >>> In short, I see the role of the volunteer changing, but not 
going away any time soon.Â
            >>> 
            >>> There's an old Chinese proverb that says "may you live in 
interesting times." I've always wondered whether that was a curse, challenge or 
a blessing. Whatever
            >>> it is, we live in very interesting times with bookshare.Â
            >>> 
            >>> BobÂ
            >>> 
            >>> “We know the future will outlast all of us, but I believe 
that all of us will live on in the future we make,�
            >>> Senator Edward M. Kennedy
            >>> 
            >>> block quote
            >>> ----- Original Message -----
            >>> 
            >>> From:
            >>> Rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx
            >>> 
            >>> To:
            >>> bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
            >>> 
            >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 9:22 PM
            >>> 
            >>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Are volunteers really that important 
anymore?
            >>> 
            >>> I am not taking a position one way or another. I just thought I 
would express some thoughts and questions that have been running through my 
mind. I have
            >>> been involved with Bookshare for just a little over a year now 
and have seen some considerable changes. I have also surmised changes that came 
about before
            >>> I came along. As I understand it the name Bookshare was literal 
in the beginning. That is, people posted the books they had scanned for 
themselves and
            >>> actually shared them with others who were posting books they 
had scanned for themselves. That would have meant that the only source of books 
Bookshare
            >>> had for the most part was from the volunteers. Since then, 
though, publishers have come to contribute large numbers of books. Bookshare is 
acquiring books
            >>> from donations or from buying them and scanning them in house 
or outsourcing them. It actually appears that the number of books added to the 
collection
            >>> by means other than volunteers is considerably greater than 
those added by the volunteers. I have noticed other things being done that 
volunteers do that
            >>> may be being done more prolifically by other means than by 
volunteers. On more than one occasion now I have made a quality report for a 
book that contained
            >>> an error or errors. To my surprise the whole entire book was 
promptly replaced by an outsourcer. That makes me wonder why we should bother 
with scanning
            >>> a BSO. Volunteers are more and more frequently finding that the 
books they intend to scan are being added by outsourcers before the volunteer 
get a chance
            >>> to add it. Yes, that means that the volunteer can work on 
something else, but it still remains that work that would have been done by a 
volunteer is being
            >>> done otherwise. We were asked for some suggestions about gaps 
in the collection and I made a suggestion. As I scan the new books lists I see 
that it appears,
            >>> to my gratification, that my suggestions are being acted on. I 
am pleased, but I cannot help noticing that it is being done without 
volunteers. If time
            >>> is money I wonder if it might be more efficient to donate money 
to Bookshare to buy books and pay outsourcers rather than donate our time. If 
we want certain
            >>> books in the collection I wonder if it might be faster and more 
efficient to just donate the books rather than put so much of our own labor 
into them.
            >>> As things change devices to accomplish our goals become 
obsolete when they are replaced by better devices and certain jobs become 
obsolete when better
            >>> and mor efficient ways are found to do things. I wonder if 
Bookshare volunteering is a job that is becoming obsolete. Since we have not 
even heard hints
            >>> from Bookshare that new volunteers are no longer welcome or 
that volunteers can give up on certain jobs I wonder if Bookshare volunteering 
is becoming
            >>> obsolete and the folks at Bookshare do not even realize it yet. 
It does seem that the volunteers are becoming less important to Bookshare and 
that Bookshare
            >>> could probably now do quite well without volunteers while still 
adding books at a rapid rate. I am not saying that is good or bad. I am not 
saying that
            >>> I want it to be like that or that I don't want it to be like 
that. I am just wondering and thinking. What do you guys think about what I 
have said?Â
            >>> Â Â Â Â Â Â  Â Â Â Â Â Â  Â Â Â Â Â Â  Â Â Â Â Â Â  Â Â Â Â Â Â 
 Â Â Â Â Â Â  Â Â Â Â Â Â  Â Â Â Â Â Â  Â  "Can a nation be free if it 
oppresses other nations? It cannot." Vladimir Lenin   Â
            >>> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  The Militant:
            >>> http://www.themilitant.com <http://www.themilitant.com/>
            >>> Pathfinder Press:
            >>> http://www.pathfinderpress.com <http://www.pathfinderpress.com/>
            >>> Granma International:
            >>> http://granma.cu/ingles/index.html
            >>> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  _
            >>> block quote end
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