[bcab] Re: Residual vision was Accessibility considerations

Actually  Karl I was unsure how Jaws would know which Monitor Brian was
using. the main thing is to do what is comfortable. you mentioned for
example sitting with specs on and looking at a screen with letters a foot
high.  That would have driven me potty . I often found it hard to explain
that big is not always better but far far worse. Example,   Even after the
first lot of damage which did for much of the retina and pigment I  could
see small print well. Now is someone held up a newspaper and said " read me
the Headlines" I  would say I can't I could perhaps see the tip of one
letter in the headlines  not a whole letter let alone a word. However the
print below the headlines if well printed in a normal newspaper I could read
Ok. some fellow with a Yag laser rather did for that and now I cannot see
print in my hand no pair of specs  or specs makes any difference at all. The
miracle is and it did astound me, truly is that in a dark room black screen
white font I can both see and hear what is going on. with my left eye n one 
one looking at my eye in any hospital can understand what I am seeing with,
as there seems to be nothing in the way of Macular to see  with."How does
she do it, come here look at this" is what I hear. so  even at the best
hospital in the world and I think Moorfields is, they don't know everything.
If I am seeing someone new they will take into the room and say "look at the
board" I say which board where is the board,  baffled silence. answer 'over
there' me where is over there? I say can you turn the lights out
please."turn the lights out!! me  yes just turn them off. .  I think you may
understand some of this. The experts  cannot always tell what you or I can
see. We tell them  as you know there  visual field tests and Flurascene
tests. but only  the really good expert in my case it was Professor Bird
could understand. he would say" of course you must use black screen it is
surely the only sensible way to use a PC"  I like you get tired of people
not understanding, so I just say  can you giveme a hand I can't see very
well and leave it at that.mind you  holes in the roads in this area  are
common, once  I vanished into a large hole in the middle of the road , it
had started to rain and the workmen had dashed for cover, thinking Oh well
anyone can see a big hole in the middle of the road didn't put mesh around
it. I with  a bag of shopping and umbrella and  fresh new laid eggs
vanished into hole However this is everyday stuff and threatening the council 
is a waste of time. Next time I shall not  struggle out of hole I shall stay
in it and yell for  an ambulance and a photographer. Make them act sensibly.
The Council has huge insurance I have not. Oh dear I fear I have go best scan 
the mail and leave you in peace Dorothy into a rant! so I shall apologise
and,
----- Original Message ----- From: "Karl Proud" <karl@xxxxxxxxxxx> 
To: <bcab@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 7:32 AM
Subject: [bcab] Re: Residual vision was Accessibility considerations


I think this issue highlights the difference between useable vision and
residual sight.  As Brian pointed out some technology does help with the
actual ability to read something, whether it is a CCTV or magnification but
may not be a solution that works for the person.  I don't think it's worth
taking 15 minutes over reading one side of A4 paper over sticking it in the
scanner and OCR 'ing it.  Also, quality of vision can change daily with a
lot of eye conditions which can limit ability if you rely too much on it for
computer use - this was my position a few years ago, which meant that with
magnification I could use the PC only about 20% of the time.

I get rather sick of my sight being public property when I'm out and about,
so don't particularly enjoy trying to describe the actual ins and outs of my
eye complaint so tend to rely on a few stock phrases indicating no useable
vision.

I can see the point of software developers working with speech as an
accessibility technique as it is a one size fits all, rather than dealing
with the vast differences in peoples actual abilities.

Karl
----- Original Message ----- From: "Karina Gregory" <karina.gregory@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
To: <bcab@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 10:21 PM
Subject: [bcab] Re: Residual vision was Accessibility considerations


I know that this is a bit off topic, but this is one thing that I have never
been able to understand, and that is - if people have got even a little bit
of sight, why don't they make the most of what they've got instead of giving
the impression that they've got no sight at all?  I think that it can be
very misleading to sighted people and that this is possible where people
have got the impression that most people who are registered blind have no
sight at all which is wrong as a lot of registered blind people do have at
least a small amount of sight and I just can't understand why they don't
seem to want to make the most of it.  To bring this discussion back on
topic, it could be argued that software developers are designing their
applications solely around speech applications, as they just assume that if
someone is blind they can't see.  I have got a small amount of sight, and I
have found it very difficult to trust JAWS alone without magnification.  I'm
interested to hear the views of others on this list about this subject, but
I think to overcome the whole issue of accessibility we need to more
accurately educate the people who are developing things for our use as it
seems that once someone is registered blind, that's it, they psychologically
have no sight atll but I'm sure I will be corrected if I'm wrong about this.
I'm not saying that it's not traumatic though.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Karl Proud" <karl@xxxxxxxxxxx> 
To: <bcab@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 6:13 PM
Subject: [bcab] Residual vision was Accessibility considerations



    Dorothy,

Your post made me think...

Most of the JAWS users I know do have some residual vision but have in the
end moved over to total speech reliance.  I remember 3 years ago when I
first lost my sight how I tried desperately and rather pathetically to
decipher a screen with thick glasses and bizarre colour contrast and

letters

a foot high etc.  Life is a lot easier now that I have gone over to the

dark

side.

Battery life on my laptop is pretty good now the screen is switched off as
well...

Karl
---- Original Message ----- From: "Dorothy Ingram-Gorban" <dorothy.ingram-gorban@xxxxxxxxx> 
To: <bcab@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 4:28 PM
Subject: [bcab] Re: Accessibility considerations


Thank you Charles so zoomtext is made by the  name you mention. screen
readers are for people for  all  grades of visual impairment.  As I said I
know several  places such as schools for the blind and  other  Charities

who

used to use Magic to do what Zoomtext now does much better. They all

however

use Jaws as well I don't know if Zoomtext works with Wineyes  or Dolphin.
There some totally blind people who do not bother with a  Monitor at all

if

that is what you mean?  Most of us  probably  use any residual vision we
have and a Screenreader. I only need Lunar for 1 reason that is to invert
the screen to High contrast black so I can use white font. I am
experimenting with the magnification at times.  it helps in small doses.
Magic did most extraordinary things it did not work well with Jaws. Think

of

it as a sort of assistant for Jaws. I rather think your Zoomtext may do

the

same. Lunar not invasive.  it cost£250  but it makes life bearable for me.

I

do like to see pictures as well.  if only as through a glass darkly.  I
often shut Lunar off for this. If the photographs are  not in too much
detail and if I know what they are I can after a while see them. I think
this is due to the brain filling in what it knows should be there. some

days

I am quite good at getting a fix on a picture other days not.. I expect it
is the same for you. I am not using any central vision at all I have to
think to see, I cannot explain it any other way. Don't forget up until a

few

years ago I was using a typewriter taking photos myself.  never thinking I
would lose what I had left. The original damage was done years ago but I
kept enough to read print and of course I had no reason to think another
mishap would happen.   This is why I need a really good scanner to be
independent  because there may not always be another person around another
half or family member. I am scanning carbon copies this is very hard

indeed.

but even if I only get the gist of what it says I can make a decision

myself

and not have to ask Dorothy.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Crisp " <charlescrisp@xxxxxxx> 
To: <bcab@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 3:47 PM
Subject: [bcab] Re: Accessibility considerations


Hi

Zoomtext is made by AI squared. It seems to read in whatever mode or

colour

combination. I also use a French speech engine for one of the profiles.

I am not a technical expert, but I thought screen readers did not need a
screen. The software just reads the electronic text regardless of font

size,

colour or style.

I am sure someone will know.

Kind regards

Charles Crisp

See our holiday home website:
www.thecrisps.co.uk/french-house <http://www.thecrisps.co.uk/french-house>



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-----Original Message-----
From: bcab-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:bcab-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On

Behalf

Of Dorothy Ingram-Gorban
Sent: 26 February 2007 14:51
To: bcab@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [bcab] Re: Accessibility considerations

 Charles Dolphin or supernova is 1 of the 3 true screen readers in the

world


of the Vips As yet I don't know what apple can do. so you have Jaws made

by

Freedom and  Supernova made by Dolphin a British company. and windowEyes

and


I forget  quite who makes that Steve nutt would know.  I do not know much
about Zoomtext only that people seemed to move  to it who formerly used
Magic is a Freedom Product. I have forgotten who makes your product is

that

also Freedom? I have also heard of a product called  something like AI
squared. Now I do not know if Zoom and A I squared are similar?  I do not
know about Wineyes if it works in high contrast black and white I  am told
Supernova does. I know Jaws does not Dorothy.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Crisp " <charlescrisp@xxxxxxx> 
To: <bcab@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 11:08 AM
Subject: [bcab] Re: Accessibility considerations


Hi Karina

Light text on dark is probably right for plain text, but for more graphic
layouts the conversion may not be so successful. I don't know Dolphin
software or quite what it does. Zoomtext has a reading mode on the fly

which

converts the text in whatever form into black background with a selected
colour text font. This can then be further enlarged for reading.

Other colour combinations particularly those with colour 'overlays' such

as

green, yellow or blue can help with particular eye conditions.

Personally I do not attempt to read from the screen, it is quicker to use
the reader.
The biggest fault with the reader is that it will not read 'dialogue

boxes',

which is strange because it can be forced to speak using a 'speak it' tool
which works most of the time.


Kind regards

Charles Crisp

See our holiday home website:
www.thecrisps.co.uk/french-house <http://www.thecrisps.co.uk/french-house>



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-----Original Message-----
From: bcab-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:bcab-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On

Behalf

Of Karina Gregory
Sent: 26 February 2007 01:57
To: bcab@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [bcab] Re: Accessibility considerations

Hi Charles,
I would have thought that light text on a darker background would be the
better option for most people, particularly as this would reduce glare.

I'm

sure that others will put me right if I'm wrong.  I don't think there's

ever

going to be a solution that can meet everyone.  I suppose that the other
option would be to change the colour preferences within your magnification
softwae, but I don't know about others but sometimes this can be very
confusing as it changes the whole screen and sometimes makes it difficult

to

differentiate between the menu bars and other screen content.  I

personally

prefer to use the inverted colours offered by Lunar as this identifies the
menus as well as the text much better.  There are some other alternatives
e.g. yellow on blue, light green on dark green, but I find these quite
difficult.  Do other magnification users agree with what Im saying about
being able to differentiate between the menu bars and the other text?
Karina
----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Crisp " <charlescrisp@xxxxxxx> 
To: <bcab@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 10:46 AM
Subject: [bcab] Re: Accessibility considerations


Hi all

I've come late to this discussion.

One of the problems with screen colours which are fixed to any standard is
that some eye conditions are variable and one set of colour and contrast

may

not suit everyone.
Someone mentioned the BBC and they have the 'My web, my way' web site at

http://www.bbc.co.uk/accessibility/

This contains advice on how to change the screen colours and contrast for
individual preference.

Perhaps it is more important to have a standard that will allow all screen
readers perform better, and we all know how difficult this can be.


Kind regards

Charles Crisp

See our holiday home website:
www.thecrisps.co.uk/french-house <http://www.thecrisps.co.uk/french-house>






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-----Original Message-----
From: bcab-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:bcab-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On

Behalf

Of Léonie Watson
Sent: 24 February 2007 22:21
To: bcab@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [bcab] Re: Accessibility considerations

Karen,

    You're absolutely right about the fact that many agencies are
unscrupulous about the quality of service they deliver. It's one of the

many

reasons that reading PAS 78 is such a good idea:
http://www.drc-gb.org/library/website_accessibility_guidance/pas_78.aspx

    For people who are commissioning websites, but know little about web
accessibility, PAS 78 is a great place to start understanding the basics.

It

even includes a checklist of questions to ask prospective agencies before
you hire them.

    Additionally, it talks about the need for ensuring that the level of
accessibility required is explicitly mentioned in the contract you have

with

the agency. That way, if it comes to light at a later point that your
website is not accessible, you have legal recourse to resolve the problem.


Regards,
Léonie.

________________________________

From: bcab-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:bcab-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On

Behalf

Of Karen Packham
Sent: 24 February 2007 21:03
To: bcab@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [bcab] Re: Accessibility considerations


I sometimes help organisations with their websites, and sadly I know that
some of them (or more probably their web agencies) will put the
accessibility logos on their sites because they believe certain testing
tools are all they need to use, and they don't actually read the
accessibility guidelines.

Others say they are "working towards accessibility", so they say it's
cheaper for them to have the logo on the website from the start, or else
they will have to pay the agency to add it later. And others are simply
misled by their agencies completely.

Colour contrast is definitely one thing that inexperienced organisations

are

surprised to hear about, so I'd suggest you contact them to explain the
issue and ask them to confirm when they will fix it, as this nudge may be
all that is needed.

What would be good is some way of publicising the names of agencies that

do

mislead their clients in this respect. The odd mistake is understandable,
but what some of them get away with is outrageous. In the end their

clients

are the ones who end up taking all the flack, whereas the agency is
invisible and only beholden to their client, who will have trusted them to
have (and paid for) the skills that the organisation lacked.

Hope this helps and sorry for the rant!

Karen

________________________________

From: bcab-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:bcab-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On

Behalf

Of Vince Thacker
Sent: 24 February 2007 18:49
To: bcab@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [bcab] Re: Accessibility considerations


Karina, couldn't agree more.  The colour combination you mention sounds
ridiculous.

Contrast is indeed an issue, mentioned in many accessibility contexts.

For example, this is from w3.org's section, "Techniques For Accessibility:
Evaluation And Repair Tools"

"Checkpoint 2.2 - Ensure that foreground and background color combinations
provide sufficient contrast when viewed by someone having color deficits

or

when viewed on a black and white screen "

The contrast values can indeed be tested by looking at the numbers or
numeric equivalents of names used for colors. So it's pretty easy to
auto-detect this problem.

I've used the Vision Australia Web Accessibility Toolbar for a long time.
One of the tests included there is a colour contrast test. It's not
difficult to carry this out, so really there's no excuse for getting it
wrong. It helps if you know that the red, green and blue can each range

from

0 to 255, and that the hex digits for those are 00 and FF. That's about

all

there is to it.

Sadly, I've come across sites put together by blind people who haven't got
it anywhere near right. One had a green background (00FF00), red text
(FF0000) and blue links (0000ff). Well, the FF digits give it away

straight

away. The text would be invisible in black and white, and in colour it

would

at the very least look yucky.

I don't know for sure, but I'd have thought even automated tests like
WebXact would fail pages with poor colour contrasts.

Of course, it's not as simple as that if you are designing a site for
dyslexics or people who have eye conditions like M D where they get a lot

of

glare. the contrast values could be fine, but the site could be a pain to
read. I know of what I speak, believe me.

Vince.
----- Original Message ----- From: Karina Gregory <mailto:karina.gregory@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
To: bcab@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 5:50 PM
Subject: [bcab] Accessibility considerations

Hi all,

I've just come across a website that claims to have WAI - AA and
WCAG 1.0 having a symbol in the corner of ths creen.  The thing that I

don't

agree with is the colour contrast - white text on a light blue background.
My question is that when websites are tested by an accessibility
website/program for accessibility, is colour contrast taken into
consideration?  Surely the colour schemes to be used can be picked up from
the code.  If it isn't already taken into consideration, maybe it could be

i

nthe future by specifying to the accessibility tool what is good contrast
and what is bad contrast.  Do you follow what I'm saying?  For example, if
the tool was told that white text on a light blue background was not good
contrast then it woud be able to reject websites that were accessed using
this method.

I'm interested in hearing the views of others on this topic.

Thanks.

Karina

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