atw: Re: 'that' vs 'who'

In Germanic languages there is often a distinction made 
between humans and animals e.g. humans eat, but animals 
feed. Objectively, the action is the same.  So having different
personal pronouns - "which" vs "that" - fits the pattern.
 
A distinction can be made between living things and inanimate 
objects too e.g. living things decompose, but inanimate objects 
decay.  Again, what happens in practice is much the same. 


--- On Wed, 4/11/09, Kathy Bowman <Kathy.Bowman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:


From: Kathy Bowman <Kathy.Bowman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: atw: Re: 'that' vs 'who'
To: austechwriter@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Received: Wednesday, 4 November, 2009, 4:29 PM



Hi Howard,
Yes apparently it was common in the times of Shakespeare to use 'that' when 
referring to people. By and large I am a curious observer of the changing 
English language and don't get my nickers into a knot about it. I have even 
tried to get new words (engageable, engageability) listed in the Maquarie 
Dictionary. However I resist the use of corporate and HR language that is 
designed to dehumanise people (or should I say 'resources'!).   
cheers
Kath



From: austechwriter-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:austechwriter-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Howard Silcock
Sent: Wednesday, 4 November 2009 3:07 PM
To: austechwriter@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: atw: Re: 'that' vs 'who'



Kathy, you may be interested to read what 'The New Fowler's Modern English 
Usage' (ed. by R.W. Burchfield) has to say about this 'convention' or 'rule' 
(or whatever you want to call it). Among other things, Burchfield says that 
"down through the centuries, 'that' has often been used with a human 
antecedent". But he does add that "the twentieth century [when the book was 
published] abounds with writers who keep to the rule that only 'who' is 
appropriate when the antecedent is human". He then seems to endorse this rule 
himself, except that he also suggests that you can use 'that' with a human 
antecedent when the person is a representative of a class or is an indefinite 
pronoun. 
 
So, as usual, anyone looking for a simple, hard and fast pronouncement is going 
to be left unsatisfied. 

Does it matter if we say 'the man that'? For me, it matters if it makes people 
seem less than human - in other words, the real test is the actual outcome. But 
compared with the awful use of 'resource' to refer to an employee or 
contractor, which seems to be quite commonplace now, I don't think it's 
something I'd worry too much about.
 
Howard
 


      
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