[arachne] Re: how much work will users do?

Arachne at FreeLists---The Arachne Fan Club!

On Wed, 16 Jan 2008 20:51:59 -0500, Glenn McCorkle wrote:

> <snip>

> The above mentioned 1.htm is now at my site.

> http://cisnet.com/glennmcc/1.htm

> Ray would also need to write similar pages to be used for
> creating/editing ... minitrm.cfg and pppdrc.cfg

> We need the opinions of you... the users.

> Will you use Ray's idea for creating/editing those
> three .CFG files from inside of Arachne ?

Sorry to keep bothering everyone with this,
but we need a few more 'user opinions'.

(I promise this is the last one of these that I'll post)

|===============================================================================
|
|797) Wed, Jan 16, 2008 - 8:26:01 pm 
|
|Ron>
|Ray,
|> Who is going to put up with needing to 
|> move a cursor by hand just to save 40% in speed and gain
|> ca. 100K of memory?
|
|  Are you saying that to add those things back into your core it will
|take up an extra 100K of memory and lose 40 % of its speed ?
|
|  Is that all you have achieved with your re-write ?
|
|  Surely not !
|
|  I have no axe to grind, either way. I can see your point in not
|wanting to give back the advantages that you have given your core, and I
|can also wish for the simplicity and elegance of the solution Glenn has
|just developed.
|
|  Now it is up to you two C-speaking geniuses to find a way through.  :)
|
|  In any case, I can't test for dial-up Wizards, as I no longer have a
|dial-up account anywhere.
|
|===============================================================================
|
|798) Wed, Jan 16, 2008 - 8:45:47 pm 
|
|ray>
|Ron,
|
|No, what's need for those improved wizards is hardly going to 
|eat up my speed/memory improvements, I'm just saying that it's
|a sad day when most people would reject those improvements 
|because the distro required what I show in 1.htm rather than
|a series of seperate wizards for each line. Nuts you have to
|type in the actual information either way, my way just does
|it all in one -- and you can call it up any time to adjust 
|something. If people realy as so helpless that they need:
|
|"What is your passsword"
|
|"What is your user name?"
|
|"What is your phone number"
|
|... seperate wizards then I live on the wrong planet.
|
|===============================================================================
|
|804) Wed, Jan 16, 2008 - 9:53:32 pm 
|
|glennmcc>
|Yep.... since lsppp.exe don't work for gregy....
|
|Instead of lsppp.cfg .... he needs to manually create/edit....
|
|1) connect\minitrm.cfg
|2) connect\pppdrc.cfg
|
|And then his connect.bat must be like so.....
|
|@echo off
|if exist ppp.log del ppp.log>NUL
|connect\miniterm.exe>PPP.LOG
|REM TRY 'lh' IN FRONT OF THE NEXT LINE, IT'S MUCH BETTER TO LOAD HI IF YOU CAN.
|rem instead of 'lh' .... 'loadhi' when using QEMM as memory manager
|loadhi connect\epppd.exe>>ppp.log
|if errorlevel 1 del PPP.LOG > NUL
|REM these sets are in secondary environment, not in master environment
|REM when we connect from within Arachne.
|if exist ip-up.bat call ip-up.bat
|if exist ip-up.bat del ip-up.bat
|_______________________________________________________________________________
|===============================================================================
|
|819) Thu, Jan 17, 2008 - 12:05:44 am 
|
|glennmcc>
|re:"Glenn, epppd config is the same as lsppp more or less?"
|
|Nope... not even close to being similar.
|
|--- lsppp.cfg ---
|/M:at&fs7=90s11=50
|/x
|/i:3
|/b:0xd000
|/d:330-423-4010
|/B:115200
|/V:60
|/U:glennmcc
|/P:****
|___________________________
|
|
|--- pppdrc.cfg ----
|
|115200
|irq 4
|base 0x3f8
|modem
|crtscts
|asyncmap 0
|namsrv 
|namsrv 
|user "glennmcc"
|passwd "*****"
|____________________________
|
|===============================================================================
|
|820) Thu, Jan 17, 2008 - 12:09:36 am 
|
|ray>
|Nuts. Well that's another reason to *not* try using keywords
|for this, heck you need a complete set for lsppp and for epppd.
|Better to have a setup wizard like 1.htm for each one.
|
|And a set for miniterm. Nope, it's tempting but it's the wrong
|design. When running, every time core needs a keyword it has to
|run through the whole list of all that stuff lookiing for what it
|wants. Slow.
|
|===============================================================================
|
|821) Thu, Jan 17, 2008 - 12:10:47 am 
|
|glennmcc>
|as you can see....
|
|lsppp.cfg is to pppdrc.cfg
|
|as....
|
|raycore_SRC_code is to STDcore_SRC_code
|
|Absoultely _NO_ similarity what-so-ever
|
|<ggg>
|
|===============================================================================
|
|822) Thu, Jan 17, 2008 - 12:13:41 am 
|
|gregy>
|Ray....ummm, I hate to mention this....as it doesn't really apply to
|testing this rayArachneDistro...but....
|...
|From Glenn's preceeding discussion, you've completely (or almost
|completely) deprecated/disassociated the ARACHNE.CFG file from your
|CORE and distro....
|...
|So, what are ordinary, normal users supposed to do for a replacement...
|????????
|...
|I mean, how do we reintroduce/integrate our multiple PROFILES that we
|have in use in our standardACFfiles.....???
|...
|
|===============================================================================
|
|824) Thu, Jan 17, 2008 - 12:17:21 am 
|
|ray>
|Gregy,
|
|Pardon? I use arachne.cfg as before, but the specific connection
|stuff is gone, as we've just been discussing. IMO keywords 
|should be for things used *inside* arachne (core, insight, wwwwman)
|not for setting parameters for external programs like packet
|drivers. To do that means having keywords for any possibility.
|keywords for lsppp, for epppd, for miniterm ... and only a partial
|set at that.
|
|===============================================================================
|
|825) Thu, Jan 17, 2008 - 12:18:39 am 
|
|glennmcc>
|re: post 820
|
|You still don't get it.
|
|Your opinion does not matter.
|
|My opinion does not matter.
|
|The only opinions that matter are those of the users.
|
|And every single one of them has said point-blank on freelists that they
|absolutely positively WILL NOT do it via your method.
|
|Everyone of them has said that they want it done 100% internally via the
|setup wizards.
|
|So, you have a decision to make.
|
|Do you want any one outside of this very small select group of testers
|to use your distro ?
|
|If you do... then you are going to have to do all 3 steps in post 779
|
|If you do not do ALL 3 steps.... no-one else is going to use your distro.
|
|4 years of work 100% wasted.
|
|PERIOD... case closed.
|
|===============================================================================
|
|826) Thu, Jan 17, 2008 - 12:21:02 am 
|
|gregy>
|Ray...
|
|"And a set for miniterm. Nope, it's tempting but it's the wrong
|design. When running, every time core needs a keyword it has to
|run through the whole list of all that stuff lookiing for what it
|wants. Slow."
|
|I may have misapprehended your previous posts about which way you were
|going with your CORE....but
|...
|I thought you set it up to initial-read values into an already loaded
|array-in-RAM, then, as CORE went along, operating as usual, it only
|had to reference that array, rather than go back an read ARACHNE.CFG
|...
|Am I wrong...???
|....
|If I'm wrong, perhaps you could FULLY explain, so I can understand and
|critique.....
|<g g g g>
|
|===============================================================================
|
|827) Thu, Jan 17, 2008 - 12:25:42 am 
|
|gregy>
|Ray....I think I agree with Glenn...but...don't know for sure....and..
|it seems that YES, my comprehension of your overall setup is flakey..
|...
|So, please post 3 (three) (in three consecutive) part explanation of
|just what you have done to disassociate your CORE from .CFGs, and
|what .CFGs are now disassociated/defunct...
|...
|hmmmm....maybe I should just ask questions, instead.
|..so....QUESTION #1
|
|===============================================================================
|
|828) Thu, Jan 17, 2008 - 12:27:10 am 
|
|glennmcc>
|Re:"To do that means having keywords for any possibility.
|keywords for lsppp, for epppd, for miniterm ... and only a partial
|set at that."
|
|Nope... just one set of ketywords/values used by both situations.
|
|Some of them are used by miniterm... others are used by epppd...
|some are used by lsppp
|
|All of them get used in both situations.
|
|===============================================================================
|
|829) Thu, Jan 17, 2008 - 12:30:06 am 
|
|gregy>
|QUESTION #1 - Do you still use the ARACHNE.CFG for ANY information..??
|QUESTION #2 - If so, WHAT INFORMATION do you use...??
|QUESTION #3 - If not, where does your CORE get information, or is it
|built-in....???
|QUESTION #4 - If yourCORE does not read/write config info for dialup
|in ARACHNE.CFG, what .CFGs does it read/write config info in.
|...
|....more questions after you answer those...
|
|===============================================================================
|
|830) Thu, Jan 17, 2008 - 12:36:46 am 
|
|glennmcc>
|Port 1                      <-------- used by miniterm, epppd and lsppp
|Irq 4                       <-------- used by miniterm, epppd and lsppp
|Base 0x3e8                  <-------- used by miniterm, epppd and lsppp
|Mode 8N1                    <-------- used by miniterm only
|Speed 115200                <-------- used by miniterm, epppd and lsppp
|InitString AT&fs7=90s11=50  <-------- used by miniterm, epppd and lsppp
|DialString ATDT             <-------- used by miniterm only
|PhoneNumber 330-984-4005    <-------- used by miniterm and lsppp
|Autologin No                <-------- used by core.exe to run the script
|WaitFor1                            in these waitfor/response lines
|Response1                           when useing miniterm to dial/login
|WaitFor2                    <-------- each of the waitfor/response lines
|Response2                             are therefore used by miniterm only
|WaitFor3 
|Response3 
|PPPusername glennmcc        <-------- used by miniterm, epppd and lsppp
|PPPpassword *****           <-------- used by miniterm, epppd and lsppp
|
|===============================================================================
|
|831) Thu, Jan 17, 2008 - 12:38:23 am 
|
|gregy>
|Ray....from reading back, and Glenn's most recent....it seems that you
|have deleted the dialup-keywords from ARACHNE.CFG...
|....
|And...you seem to say you did this because it would be "slow"...???
|...
|I disagree.....if, as you seem to have said before, yourCORE reads
|the .CFGinfo only once (upon launch) into a RAMarray, then uses that
|array for each reference-read....then...that is NOT "slow"...no matter
|how many ArachneKeywords we might put into ARACHNE.CFG or any numerous
|other .CFGs....
|...
|I mean, you might get into the "slow" category, if we loaded up fifty
|quadzillion keywords....but...any reasonable number would not make your
|RAMarray "slow"...by any stretch of the imagination...
|...
|
|===============================================================================
|
|832) Thu, Jan 17, 2008 - 12:38:39 am 
|
|glennmcc>
|Oops... made one mistake.
|
|InitString AT&fs7=90s11=50  <-------- used by miniterm and lsppp
|
|===============================================================================
|
|833) Thu, Jan 17, 2008 - 12:40:10 am 
|
|gregy>
|Glenn...I take it those are from a "standardCORE" ARACHNE.CFG....???
|
|===============================================================================
|
|834) Thu, Jan 17, 2008 - 12:43:01 am 
|
|Ron>
|Ray,
|> I mean, how do we reintroduce/integrate our multiple PROFILES that we
|> have in use in our standardACFfiles.....???
|
|  This IS an important question, Ray.
|
|  I also use multiple profiles, with each held in a different .ACF file.
|They are loaded with a click on a table of them which I have placed in
|the MAIL.AH file.  
|
|  Now, they all have the same connection requirements at the moment,
|because I only hold ONE ADSL account.
|
|  But I used to have up to three dial-up accounts, and the Tel. Nos,
|username/password, log-in procedures, etc., were all part of each
|profile in the .ACF files, and they were NOT the same !
|
|   Now, you have taken all that stuff out of the arachne.cfg file ?
|So loading an .ACF file - without the connection data - will not
|automatically change the connection profile for Arachne ?
|
|   Would I have to write a different lsppp.cfg/minitrm.cfg for EACH of
|the profiles in my .ACF files ?????
|
|   If that is so, it is certainly the end of my longterm interest in
|this fork !  I am not bullshitting, Ray, this IS serious.  Because I
|would never be able to use your version in the way I am currently using
|the standard Arachne.
|
|   I haven't been playing with different .ACF files, because I had
|assumed that you have kept all those same functions. But if they are
|truly gone, it is all over.
|
|===============================================================================
|
|835) Thu, Jan 17, 2008 - 12:45:06 am 
|
|glennmcc>
|geegy,
|
|Yep... all of that is from the STD arachne.cfg
|
|===============================================================================
|
|836) Thu, Jan 17, 2008 - 12:49:16 am 
|
|glennmcc>
|re:"  I also use multiple profiles, with each held in a different .ACF file.
|They are loaded with a click on a table of them which I have placed in
|the MAIL.AH file.  
|  Now, they all have the same connection requirements at the moment,
|because I only hold ONE ADSL account."
|
|
|Unlike Ron... I have profiles for connecting in 3 different manners.
|
|ara-net.acf == connect via NIC/DSL
|
|4234010M.acf == dial into CisNet using miniterm.exe/epppd.exe
|
|4234010L.acf == dial into CisNet using lsppp.exe
|
|===============================================================================
|
|837) Thu, Jan 17, 2008 - 12:51:24 am 
|
|glennmcc>
|In addition..... 
|
|ara-rtr.acf == connect via NIC/Router/DSL
|
|ara-lan.acf == connect to my LAN to access my other computer which is
|               running either Linux/Apache or DOS/EZNOS2
|
|===============================================================================
|
|838) Thu, Jan 17, 2008 - 12:52:00 am 
|
|Ron>
|Ray, Glenn,
|
|> Unlike Ron... I have profiles for connecting in 3 different manners.    
|
|  And I will again.  It is an important property of Arachne that she
|allows this.
|
|Glenn,
|       Could you use those three profiles with Ray's distro ?
|
|===============================================================================
|
|839) Thu, Jan 17, 2008 - 12:54:40 am 
|
|gregy>
|Ron....ermmm...perhaps we should be a tad patient with Ray....he's
|prone to argue down to the bitter end, then he grudgingly "comes around"
|....<g g g>
|...
|I, personally, cannot use an ACF-less Arachne....in fact, I have 4 of
|my ACFs on ALT-F6,F7,F8,F9, and the rest access similar to you, from
|an HTMpage linked on my portal and other pages...
|...
|However, if...I say IF...Ray sets his CORE up to read/re-read the
|ARACHNE.CFG on EVERY relaunch - including any comebackfromALT-E, then
|the re-read of the new ACF/CFG would be automagically done, and it
|would operate identically to how it now works with the standardCORE...
|...
|
|===============================================================================
|
|840) Thu, Jan 17, 2008 - 12:56:29 am 
|
|glennmcc>
|Nope.... can't use 'em in Ray's distro because the only things that are
|different from one to the other is the connection data.
|
|In Ray's distro....
|Since _all_ of the settings are identical except the connection data.
|
|ara-net.acf == 4234010M.acf == 4234010L.acf == ara-rtr.acf == ara-lan.acf
|
|===============================================================================
|
|841) Thu, Jan 17, 2008 - 12:57:07 am 
|
|gregy>
|yeah....like you guys, if/when I get ADSL, I think, seriously, I'll
|keep my separate HI-LINE ISP account, too...
|...
|...but...the important thing, is that I be able to swap/use .ACFs...
|...gotta be that way...
|...
|
|===============================================================================
|
|842) Thu, Jan 17, 2008 - 12:59:35 am 
|
|glennmcc>
|re:"However, if...I say IF...Ray sets his CORE up to read/re-read the
|ARACHNE.CFG on EVERY relaunch - including any comebackfromALT-E, then
|the re-read of the new ACF/CFG would be automagically done, and it
|would operate identically to how it now works with the standardCORE..."
|
|
|No.... it would not.
|
|Because the connection data is not in Ray's arachne.cfg
|hence switching to a new arachne.cfg via clicking on an .ACF
|does not change your connection data.
|
|===============================================================================
|
|843) Thu, Jan 17, 2008 - 1:00:24 am 
|
|gregy>
|Well....maybe others (on Freelist) might agree...and, around here, I'd
|agree to test RayCORE....but...I couldn't agree to use it...because I
|am often doing "ALT-H", swapACF, ALT-D and ...bingo!!!...I'm back in
|a different dialup/connect CFGuration......
|...I hafta have it that way....could not do it anyother way...
|...
|
|===============================================================================
|
|844) Thu, Jan 17, 2008 - 1:00:53 am 
|
|Ron>
|You said it Gregy !
|
|===============================================================================
|
|846) Thu, Jan 17, 2008 - 1:05:09 am 
|
|gregy>
|Glenn...Re: #830.....
|..And those, only about 20each keywords, are ALL that Ray has deleted
|from his ARACHNE.CFGs....???
|...
|And THAT is what all this fuss and argument is about....???
|...
|Hurrump..!!!  Ray's just being hard-headed...
|...
|Ron...stick around...we'll pound on Ray's head a bit more...he'll be
|right....<g g g >
|
|===============================================================================
|
|847) Thu, Jan 17, 2008 - 1:07:21 am 
|
|gregy>
|Ron...Glenn....I mean...Ray's got this super-quick-ref procedure built
|into his COREs....so, now, he's whinging and whining that to include
|18-20 keywords is gonna make things "slow"....???
|..
|I mean...even HE knows he's gotta be kidding.......<g g g g>
|
|===============================================================================
|
|849) Thu, Jan 17, 2008 - 1:10:02 am 
|
|glennmcc>
|The only way around it in Ray's method is to create several connect BAT
|files and several sets of CFG files.
|
|
|--- in 1.acf ---
|Connection @connect1.bat
|
|--- connect1.bat ---
|copy connect\minitrm1.cfg connect\minitrm.cfg
|copy connect\pppdrc1.cfg connect\epppd.cfg
|miniterm.exe
|epppd.exe
|______________________________________________
|
|
|--- in 2.acf ---
|Connection @connect2.bat
|
|--- connect2.bat ---
|copy connect\minitrm2.cfg connect\minitrm.cfg
|copy connect\pppdrc2.cfg connect\epppd.cfg
|miniterm.exe
|epppd.exe
|______________________________________________
|
|--- in 3.acf ---
|Connection @connect3.bat
|
|--- connect3.bat ---
|copy connect\minitrm3.cfg connect\minitrm.cfg
|copy connect\pppdrc3.cfg connect\epppd.cfg
|miniterm.exe
|epppd.exe
|______________________________________________
|
|--- in 4.acf ---
|Connection @connect4.bat
|
|--- connect4.bat ---
|copy connect\lsppp1.cfg connect\lsppp.cfg
|lsppp.exe
|______________________________________________
|
|--- in 5.acf ---
|Connection @connect5.bat
|
|--- connect5.bat ---
|copy connect\lsppp2.cfg connect\lsppp.cfg
|lsppp.exe
|______________________________________________
|
|--- in 6.acf ---
|Connection @connect6.bat
|
|--- connect6.bat ---
|copy connect\lsppp3.cfg connect\lsppp.cfg
|lsppp.exe
|______________________________________________
|
|All of those .CFG files would need to be manually created
|
|===============================================================================
|
|850) Thu, Jan 17, 2008 - 1:12:36 am 
|
|glennmcc>
|And all of those .BAT files must be manually created
|
|===============================================================================
|
|851) Thu, Jan 17, 2008 - 1:15:12 am 
|
|glennmcc>
|Many folks have 3 different dialup ISPs
|
|1.acf == connect to ISP #1 with miniterm/epppd
|2.acf == connect to ISP #2 with miniterm/epppd
|3.acf == connect to ISP #3 with miniterm/epppd
|4.acf == connect to ISP #1 with lsppp
|5.acf == connect to ISP #2 with lsppp
|6.acf == connect to ISP #3 with lsppp
|
|===============================================================================
|
|852) Thu, Jan 17, 2008 - 1:25:07 am 
|
|gregy>
|yes....I don't have right now...but have had in the past, and will
|probably have in the future.....in addition to any ADSL account I will
|have..
|...
|
|===============================================================================
|
|853) Thu, Jan 17, 2008 - 1:26:31 am 
|
|gregy>
|plus, as you mentioned.....your own in-house LAN to connect to your
|own HTTP/etc server(s) for operational and testing purposes...
|...
|
|
|===============================================================================
|
|854) Thu, Jan 17, 2008 - 1:31:11 am 
|
|Ron>
|> All of those .CFG files would need to be manually created
|> And all of those .BAT files must be manually created
|
|  Blow that for a game of candles !
|
|Ray, when you wake up, put all those bloody keywords back into
|arachne.cfg !    Or else !
|
|And, as a bonus, you can use Glenn's new wizards for dial-up.
|
|===============================================================================
|
|856) Thu, Jan 17, 2008 - 2:29:59 pm 
|
|Eric>
|Ray,    I don't care how pretty your 1.htm is.....those 
|keywords belong in arachne.cfg.  I have been telling you 
|that for EONS.
|
|===============================================================================
|
| 857) Thu, Jan 17, 2008 - 2:36:31 pm 
|
|Eric>
|Ray,   Maybe arachne.cfg isn't the file that gets read
|all the time(as gregy says, if it really is).....but maybe
|you use arachne.cfg to setup a config based only on what
|keywords will be needed depending on how the keywords are set
|in arachne.cfg. But....every stinkin' keyword arachne uses
|should be in arachne.cfg......do you understand what I'm
|saying???????
|
|===============================================================================
|
| 858) Thu, Jan 17, 2008 - 2:39:15 pm 
|
|Eric>
|One should be able to look/scan arachne.cfg and find out
|any possible user configurable setting that Arachne has.
|
|===============================================================================
|
| 859) Thu, Jan 17, 2008 - 3:03:39 pm 
|
|Eric>
|Ray,   Arachne.log file, or any log file, is supposed to
|show what's going on. That means it will only have those
|keywords that are actually being used in that particular
|setup.  A log file should not be used as a config file.
|
|===============================================================================


-- 
 Glenn
 http://www.delorie.com/listserv/mime/
 http://www.cisnet.com/glennmcc/
 http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.table.html
                  Arachne at FreeLists                  
-- Arachne, The Premier GPL Web Browser/Suite for DOS --

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