[accessibleimage] Logo and Turtle Graphics

Hello Peter:

     I just read your post on Turtle Graphics and Logo. I have the following 
questions:

1. I note that the gif file is an animated gif file. Am I correct in thinking 
that Logo could be used to create a file that could be eventually output on a 
Tiger or other Braille embosser?
2. I seem to recall that some years ago, Turtle Graphics were called turtle 
graphics because they could be used to drive a "turtle", a device looking like 
a turtle that drew on paper. Do these devices still exist?

Thank you.

Regards,

Robert


Robert Jaquiss
National Federation of the Blind
200 East Wells Street at Jernigan Place
Baltimore, Maryland 21230
Phone: 410-659-9314, ext. 2422

-----Original Message-----
From: accessibleimage-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:accessibleimage-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Peter Meijer
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 7:44 AM
To: accessibleimage@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [accessibleimage] Re: SV: Re: SV: Re: SV: Using embossing powder with 
an inkjet printer to create tactile graphics

Hi Lisa (and Richard),

> Saw that you mentioned Turtle. What do you think about using Logo as a
> design tool for visually impaired designers.

Years ago I wrote a web page about accessible creation of "turtle graphics"
using a Logo interpreter. That web page is at the URL

    http://www.seeingwithsound.com/turtle_graphics.htm

and includes an example of an animated GIF image where a filled white square
is created one side at a time before filling it with white. There is also an
example of 3D graphics, where a cube is created one face at a time. The Logo
source code is included on the web page.

As a sighted developer I hold no opinions about what languages, tools and
methods work best for visually impaired designers, and depending on the task
at hand.

Best regards,

Peter


Seeing with Sound - The vOICe
http://www.seeingwithsound.com


On 16-8-2011 12:39, Lisa Yayla wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Thanks for the links.
>
> Saw that you mentioned Turtle. What do you think about using Logo as a design
> tool for visually impaired designers.
>
> Thought that this would be one way to approach the issue of someone is blind
> creating their own graphics with words.
>
> Recently posted a link about a Prof. who was using MindStorms (adapted) for
> blind teenagers. Prof. herself being blind.
>
> While back also a MIT thesis about adapting MindStorms for visually impaired.
>
> Regards,
>
> Lisa
>
> *Fra:*accessibleimage-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:accessibleimage-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] *På vegne av* Richard Baldwin
> *Sendt:* 16. august 2011 12:29
> *Til:* accessibleimage@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> *Emne:* [accessibleimage] Re: SV: Re: SV: Using embossing powder with an 
> inkjet
> printer to create tactile graphics
>
> Regarding an edge detector program, see
> http://www.developer.com/java/other/article.php/3798646 Also see
> http://www.dickbaldwin.com/java/Java353.htm where I present an edge-detected
> version of Elvis Presley's portrait.
>
> Regarding image manipulation in general, see lessons #340 through #462 at
> http://www.dickbaldwin.com/tocadv.htm
>
> Dick Baldwin
>
> On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 4:25 AM, Lisa Yayla <Lisa.Yayla@xxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:Lisa.Yayla@xxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
>
> rgb] My main concern is for the student to be able to create and then 
> experience
> technical drawings in math, engineering, and physics courses, which for the 
> most
> part would be black and white line drawings or could be reduced to such.
>
> There is a project and free tool at Univ. Washington (if I remember correctly)
> for printing out batch graphics from math etc books where the graphics are
> fairly uniform and stable throughout the book. Believe the tool then takes 
> away
> the extraneous bits so what one is left with then could be treated perhaps in
> the way you suggest
>
> rgb] I agree that it probably wouldn't work well if there were lots of colors 
> or
> shades of gray. However, neither would a mechanical embosser that is only
> capable of making big bumps or no bumps.
>
> Agree, but then that's why the designer that simplifies the graphic so it can 
> be
> used on an embosser
>
> rgb] It isn't difficult to write a so-called "edge detector" program that
> reduces a complex graphic to something that looks a lot like a pencil 
> drawing. I
> have written several such programs myself and even include instruction in that
> area in one of the courses that I teach. In fact, I believe I published
> something about this several years ago but with a different objective. Some
> graphics lend themselves to such treatment and produce reasonable results 
> while
> other graphics produce results that are not satisfactory even for sighted 
> observers.
>
> Neat! Can you send a link to your article? This would be a great tool to 
> have. I
> know there are tracer tools for jpegs, gifs etc but I haven't used them much. 
> I
> tend to redraw and redraw to simplify. Would be great to have a tool that is
> made specifically for the task.
>
> rgb] I totally agree that whatever the embossing technique being used, the
> technique will work well with some graphics and not so well with others.
>
> Hopefully with time there will be an increase in programs etc for helping with
> tactile graphics. The amount of design, drawing tools for creating graphics 
> for
> sighted users to be used by sighted users is great. Wonderful if there were a
> plethitude of drawing tools, programs. Production means etc for VI users.
>
> Regards,
>
> Lisa
>
> *Fra:*accessibleimage-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:accessibleimage-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> [mailto:accessibleimage-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:accessibleimage-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] *På vegne av* Richard Baldw
>
> in
> *Sendt:* 15. august 2011 16:13
> *Til:* accessibleimage@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:accessibleimage@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> *Emne:* [accessibleimage] Re: SV: Using embossing powder with an inkjet 
> printer
> to create tactile graphics
>
> Hi Lisa, Thanks for the response. Strange about that link going bad. Here are 
> a
> couple more dealing with the same topic:
>
> http://decorativerubberstamps.net/inkjet-embossing-paper/
>
> http://www.allcrafts.net/mywedding.htm
>
> The web page for the second link is pretty messy so I don't know how 
> accessible
> it will be. Other links involving embossing powder and inkjet printers can be
> found using Google.
>
> I'm going to include my response in your original text below. I will identify 
> my
> response by the symbol rgb] on the left margin.
>
> On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 3:31 AM, Lisa Yayla <Lisa.Yayla@xxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:Lisa.Yayla@xxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
>
> Hi Richard,
>
> Intriguing idea. Sounds like it might work. Question though - would it be just
> any old computer generated graphic that would be used?
>
> rgb] My main concern is for the student to be able to create and then 
> experience
> technical drawings in math, engineering, and physics courses, which for the 
> most
> part would be black and white line drawings or could be reduced to such.
>
>     It might be a bit tricky then because all the tones and shading would also
>     print out and then would be embossed. This might cause confusion
>
>     for the reader of the graphic if visually impaired. However this of course
>     is a generalization since different people have different abilities.
>
> rgb] I agree that it probably wouldn't work well if there were lots of colors 
> or
> shades of gray. However, neither would a mechanical embosser that is only
> capable of making big bumps or no bumps.
>
>     I sort of look at the process of making tactile graphics as a translation
>     job - from one modality to another
>
>     One idea might be a program that takes the graphic and simplifies it- that
>     is the program acts like a human that is simplifying a graphic. A couple
>     years back I sent an email about a Google lecture of a researcher who was
>     working on an algorithm for such a program. Will try to find the link and 
> send.
>
> rgb] It isn't difficult to write a so-called "edge detector" program that
> reduces a complex graphic to something that looks a lot like a pencil 
> drawing. I
> have written several such programs myself and even include instruction in that
> area in one of the courses that I teach. In fact, I believe I published
> something about this several years ago but with a different objective. Some
> graphics lend themselves to such treatment and produce reasonable results 
> while
> other graphics produce results that are not satisfactory even for sighted 
> observers.
>
>     Most graphics on the internet are made by sighted persons who assume that
>     they will be read by other sighted persons. So the starting point, 
> graphics
>     from the internet, make it a tricky start. Therefor if one changes the
>     starting point -
>
>     If the student knows what the graphic is from before and is familiar with 
> it
>     - sounds like it would work.(I have created a font with typical images 
> with
>     the idea that they would be embossed. That is if you tab "t" a picture of 
> a
>     circle would come up.) But then that is not perhaps the exact thing you
>
>     are thinking about?
>
>     If the student creates a graphic him/herself first (using German plastic 
> or
>     screen drawing pad etc), then scans it in then will be able to reproduce 
> the
>     graphic over and over. Sounds like a cool art project.
>
> rgb] Sounds interesting.
>
>     Another idea might be in the .html coding. For pictures on a website
>     accessible alternatives - descriptions, short and long ones. What if there
>     where alternative
>
>     pictures for the visual pictures? That is a .html tag for including a
>     alternative image that could be embossed out, either with swell paper or 
> an
>     embosser? This would also help change the mindset of designers. That is 
> more
>     designers, illustrators, graphic designers would become familiar with
>     accessible graphics, create more etc.
>
>     So if an <tacimg> or <embimg> tag was available for each graphic used then
>     the embossing powder would work without intervention. The image would be
>     made with the idea that it would be produced with embossing.
>
>     There is a html tag for an alternative background picture. But that is not
>     what I mean. That one is a picture that loads quickly while the "real"
>     background which might take a lot of time picture loads.
>
> rgb] Getting a change in Internet standards would be a task best suited to a
> coalition of organizations that represent blind people. But, you have to start
> somewhere and your idea sounds like a good one.
>
>     So I guess I am saying that the starting point is important if the student
>     is going to be able to decipher the picture. Again different abilities ...
>
> rgb] I totally agree that whatever the embossing technique being used, the
> technique will work well with some graphics and not so well with others.
>
>     I tried the link but could get to the article. Could you check it?
>
> rgb] See the beginning of my response for a couple of alternative sites. That
> site was alive and well when I made the post and still shows up in a Google
> search, but doesn't work. Maybe the organization that posted the article 
> failed
> to pay their bill.
>
>     Bit long winded of me.
>
>     Best,
>
>     Lisa
>
>     *Fra:*accessibleimage-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>     <mailto:accessibleimage-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>     [mailto:accessibleimage-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>     <mailto:accessibleimage-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] *På vegne av* Richard 
> Baldwin
>     *Sendt:* 13. august 2011 17:42
>     *Til:* accessibleimage@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> <mailto:accessibleimage@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>;
>     BlindMath Mailing List
>     *Emne:* [accessibleimage] Using embossing powder with an inkjet printer to
>     create tactile graphics
>
>     I keep searching for a simple, cheap, and effective way for blind students
>     to convert computer-generated printed graphics into tactile graphics 
> without
>     the assistance of a sighted person.
>
>     The article at http://www.cebug.org/blogs/embossing-powder-inkjet-printer
>     and numerous other online articles describe a process that people use to
>     emboss computer-generated designs onto their craft projects.
>
>     The process appears to be relatively inexpensive, requiring only an inkjet
>     printer, a heat gun that sells for around $30.00, and embossing power that
>     sells for about $5.00 for a small container that can be used to emboss
>     multiple documents.
>
>     The process appears to be well developed (as a craft) in non-computer
>     graphics where rubber stamps are used to apply wet graphic designs to 
> paper
>     before applying the embossing powder and the heat. Because of the size of
>     that market, I would assume that the chemistry of the process is well
>     understood by the manufacturers of the embossing powder.
>
>     Has anyone tried using this process to convert computer-generated graphics
>     into tactile graphics for blind students?
>
>     Assuming that the process would produce usable tactile graphics, is this a
>     process that could be routinely and independently accomplished by a blind
>     student?
>
>     If the process would produced usable tactile graphics and could be 
> routinely
>     and independently accomplished by a blind student, this might create a
>     market of sufficient size to entice some entrepreneurial person to start 
> an
>     online business refilling spent ink cartridges with a slow-drying ink, 
> since
>     that seems to be one of the keys to embossing computer-generated graphic
>     designs.
>
>     Dick Baldwin
>
>     --
>     Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
>     Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials
>     http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>
>     Professor of Computer Information Technology
>     Austin Community College
>     (512) 223-4758 <tel:%28512%29%20223-4758>
>     mailto:Baldwin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:Baldwin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>     http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/
>
>
>     -Scanned by Exchange Hosted Services-
>
>
>
> --
> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
> Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials
> http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>
> Professor of Computer Information Technology
> Austin Community College
> (512) 223-4758 <tel:%28512%29%20223-4758>
> mailto:Baldwin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:Baldwin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/
>
>
> -Scanned by Exchange Hosted Services-
>
>
>
> --
> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
> Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials
> http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>
> Professor of Computer Information Technology
> Austin Community College
> (512) 223-4758
> mailto:Baldwin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:Baldwin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/
>
>
> -Scanned by Exchange Hosted Services-

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