[accessibleimage] Re: Blind children drawing people

• From: "Amanda Lacy" <lacy925@xxxxxxxxx>
• To: <accessibleimage@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
• Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 11:32:22 -0600

```LOL Miss O, they won't throw us Flatlanders in jail for discussing the third
dimension, will they?

Amanda
----- Original Message -----
From: Susan Osterhaus
To: accessibleimage@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 11:24 AM
Subject: [accessibleimage] Re: Blind children drawing people

Ann,

I’ve thoroughly enjoyed this discussion, and I’m one of those sighted people
who have trouble interpreting a two-dimensional drawing of a three-dimensional
object. I have a friend who is totally blind from birth, and she is much better
at this than I am. Her husband, who is blind, is more like me. They have two
sighted children and one has her abilities and the other does not. I’ve
consoled myself in the fact that I’ve learned to compensate and live with my
“disability” by lots of practice and working with blind students who have
helped me “see” 3-D. As a math teacher, Geometry was never my best subject
area, yet everyone who has observed me teaching it exclaims how well I teach
it. I probably have more geometry math toys than anything else in fact. I guess
that I have been teaching myself right along with my students – hopefully one
step ahead of them some of the time.

Charles said: “Many blind children (and also adults) cannot conceive drawing
a three-dimensional object in a two-dimensional medium.  Whether it is a
neurological, a developmental or conceptual block, this is so for many.
Three-dimensional visualizing, and more critically here the sense of sight
being able to “see” in three dimensions must be learned within a narrow windows
at an early time in the child’s life.  Else it doesn’t seem to take.” I have
really wanted for someone to do research in this exact area to help explain the
phenomenon.

Ann, Amanda and I (and others on this list) are in Austin, TX, so please let
us know the next time you are nearby, and we can get together and play with
your “stuff.” We can also talk more about Flatland!! Try to avoid our very hot
summers, and you should enjoy your stay. Whenever it’s really cold in Denver,

Best wishes,

Susan

From: accessibleimage-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:accessibleimage-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
ann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 10:10 AM
To: accessibleimage@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [accessibleimage] Re: Blind children drawing people

Well I will keep that in mind and contact you if I am going to be near by. I
think there is a good chance that could happen sometime. Ann

Ann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Keep In Touch!
www.SensationalBooks.com
P.O. Box 261085
Lakewood, CO 80226
(303) 238-4760

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [accessibleimage] Re: Blind children drawing people
From: "cpond" <cpond@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: Wed, February 01, 2012 8:51 am
To: <accessibleimage@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>

I’m afraid we’re separated by something less-than concept, but harder to
bridge in a logistical way.  I’m in Ottawa Ontario, Canada.

Charles

From: ann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 10:25 AM

To: accessibleimage@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Subject: [accessibleimage] Re: Blind children drawing people

Amanda and Charles, I was first inspired to teach by Dr. John Kennedy's
work, Drawing and the Blind in particular. I have developed the classes but I
have not put them to paper. Maybe you could contact me directly and tell me
where you are located. I travel a lot and maybe you do too. (I am in the Denver
area) I would be more than happy to get together with one or both of you and
try some of this stuff out. Game? Ann

Ann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Keep In Touch!
www.SensationalBooks.com
P.O. Box 261085
Lakewood, CO 80226
(303) 238-4760

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [accessibleimage] Re: Blind children drawing people
From: "Amanda Lacy" <lacy925@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: Mon, January 30, 2012 8:16 pm
To: <accessibleimage@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>

﻿

Charles,

<smile> In Flatland, the 2D beings read 1D books.

The very first time I encountered a drawing of a 3D shape came in the 6th
grade in the form of a simple math question: What shape is this? Below those
words was a tactile circle with a curved line through it. Of course, I answered
"circle." Although the teacher said I was wrong she gave me credit anyway since
she was at a loss to prove her claim that this was somehow a sphere that did
not roll off the page.

Ann, do you have online lessons for blind students who struggle with
these concepts? Throughout my life I have had many of the exact same unanswered
questions that Charles has articulated so well here.

Amanda

----- Original Message -----

From: cpond

To: accessibleimage@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 8:55 PM

Subject: [accessibleimage] Re: Blind children drawing people

Hi Ann.  There is much in what you write, and much one could say to
reply.  If you would draw a hand as you describe, which is a fairly flat
object. then how would one draw a fist, which is definitely three dimensional?
The three-dimensional shape must be captured, and yet the object drawn must be
identifiable as a fist and not a hand, or as a hand reconfigured into a fist?
Actually, a hand is a three-dimentional albeit flat object.  The fingers are
round and elongated; the nails are curved; the palm is thicker than the rest of
the hand.

How would you draw a record as compared to a cookie?

I wonder if the tactile representation of visual tricks would work
tactually on a blind person, like parallax for example.  I think not.

In school we always dealt with realtime three-D models of objects, or
even well-done thermoform representations of three-dimensional objects.

Ha.  As for the funnies, well, maybe I’ll write a one-dimensional book

The tactile picture of an elongated cylinder in no way conjures up in
my mind the actual image of a cylinder.  It cannot come up off of the page.
<quizzzical look here>

To some blind adults, tactile graphics, perfectly clear to a sighted
person, feel like a jumple of lines and curves with absolutely no meaning.  I
suppose that subjectively I’m somewhere in between, except that I know the
symbols for electrical schematics and such.  The are purely symbolic and not
pictorial.

Charles

From: ann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 5:45 PM

To: accessibleimage@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Subject: [accessibleimage] Re: Blind children drawing people

I love this conversation.

I have not experienced the limitation of a one shot window of
comprehension that Charles has seen. I teach art at the Colorado Center for the
Blind (students 18+ years old) for the last 12 years and over the years we have
come up with some really accessible ways to explore (hands on) picture plane
concepts like: over lap and outline, foreground, middle and background,
horizon, convergence and diminution of size and the like. It really seems that
most of the time I am giving words to concepts that have been living right
below the surface of consciousness anyway, it is not really that big a leap.
One of the first lessons we start with is recognizing, sorting and naming basic
shapes. Then when you move onto a concept like point of view or point of
perception and trying to draw a 3D object, we can deconstruct the object into
basic forms and start there. For example - my hand face on is a big rectangle
with five skinny rectangles arranged around it. That is basic then I can
refine.  I find that technique works equally well for sighted people who have
no idea how to convert a 3D object into a 2D picture either.

I have modified a perspective machine that is ripped from the brain
of Albrecht Durer. With that student are able to tactually create their own
pictures using all the standard picture conventions with their own
imaginations. Very fun and students have made some wonderful art work that they
can self critique towards improving their skills.

Ann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Keep In Touch!
www.SensationalBooks.com
P.O. Box 261085
Lakewood, CO 80226
(303) 238-4760

-------- Original Message --------
Subject:  e] Re: Blind children drawing people
From: "cpond" <cpond@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: Sun, January 29, 2012 8:14 pm
To: <accessibleimage@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>

Many blind children (and also adults) cannot conceive drawing a
three-dimensional object in a two-dimensional medium.  Whether it is a
neurological, a developmental or comceptual block, this is so for many.
Three-dimensional visualizing, and more critically here the sense of sight
being able to “see” in three dimensions must be learned within a narrow windows
at an early time in the child’s life.  Else it doesn’t seem to take.

Charles

From: bmarek

Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 2:28 PM

To: accessibleimage@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Subject: [accessibleimage] Re: Blind children drawing people

It's probably silly to post a question and then to try and answer it
but I, too, find the question intriguing. I work mainly with school-age
children, where I am confronted with somewhat different challenges, like the
request I had from a 10-year old who said: I can understand drawings of people
standing but not when they are doing something. To help him and other children
solve this "problem", I developed a resource which I call "Fleximan" but it
only helps children understand what people look like when they sit, bend down,
jump, do push-ups or somersaults, kick or throw a ball etc. but does not
provide an answer to the question about how very young blind children draw
people.  My feeling is that "tadpoles" may not be an obligatory stage in blind
children's drawings. Drawing on plastic is much harder than drawing on paper so
probably blind children do not start drawing as early as sighted kids, and,
drawing a circle is not easy when you can't see so sth like a rectangle is more
likely as the main part of a person's body. But I may be wrong

Boguslaw 'Bob' Marek

W dniu 29.01.2012 20:16, bmarek napisał(a):

Below I am copying a message from another list - a question from a
friend in Australia.

Boguslaw 'Bob' Marek:

Hi,
For a new project I am very interested to find out if you know of
research or resources giving an insight in the drawing development of young
blind children and if, like their sighted peers, they go through a period in
which they draw so-called "tadpole drawings", basically a circle as the head
and body in one, and then sticks as arms and legs?
kind regards,
Phia

Sonokids Australia
www.sonokids.org

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