[access-uk] Re: chip and pin, cash machines and the likeRe: Re: COUNCIL POLICY TO WAIVE SIGNATURE WHEN VOTING BY POST

Won't make any odds as i understand it as the gubins to do the cloning is 
put in the machine where you place he card so, it makes no odds who puts it 
in there.

The bank probably would  probably try and get out of giving you the money 
back mind you.

Trace

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Barry Hill" <bbinc@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 5:52 PM
Subject: [access-uk] Re: chip and pin, cash machines and the likeRe: Re: 
COUNCIL POLICY TO WAIVE SIGNATURE WHEN VOTING BY POST


I didn't know that a store isn't supposed to handle my card so every store
that I use my card in, I have handed my card over for the staff to put in
the machine.  Now that I think about it, if my card was cloned, the bank
might be able to claim that I was to blame for handing my card over.  I
think I'll check up on this the next time I go to my bank.

Barry

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ray's Home" <rays-home@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 4:55 PM
Subject: [access-uk] Re: chip and pin, cash machines and the likeRe: Re:
COUNCIL POLICY TO WAIVE SIGNATURE WHEN VOTING BY POST


Tesco have always taken customers cards to scan, and I waite for them to
tell me
when to enter my PPIN.

Maybe this is peculiar to Tesco alone?

From Ray
I can be contacted off-list at:
mailto:ray-48@xxxxxxxx


-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf
Of Graham Page


I have to say I have never been given this advice about cards.  I have just
handed the card over and if necessary I suppose appeared forceful enough to
make them take it.

The assistant could guide you to the slot to put your card in I suppose.  It
all depends on how adaptable and resourceful the assistant is and what if
any training and general advice has been given.

Many people, irrespective of the amount of sight they have have just not
been shown the technology so the assistant needs to know how to describe the
usage of the machine for a start.

If you risk dying though if you touch latex then I suppose that remains the
more fundamental issue.  I have not heard of this being an issue and blind
people are often asked about how things like keypads or equipment could be
made better.  I think that people are not consulted anywhere near as often
as they should be but the question does arise and it is important to take
into account issues other people may have when trying to use good design
practice.

Cheers


Graham
----- Original Message -----
From: "Emma Wright" <emmajane9@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 3:49 PM
Subject: [access-uk] Re: chip and pin, cash machines and the likeRe: Re:
COUNCIL POLICY TO WAIVE SIGNATURE WHEN VOTING BY POST


I did try your suggestion about asking a shop assistant to help me and
was told they weren't allowed to touch the customers card any more and
I had to do it myself.  I guess it depends on store policy, but it did
put me off a bit!  After that I found out about the latex risk, and
gave up using chip and pin.  It seems to me that latex is a really
strange thing to make the buttons from as so many people are allergic
to it, and many could die instantly if they came into contact with it.
 The machines are so different that a cover wouldn't work, so for the
time being I'll make do with signing I guess and try to smile if asked
for a driving licence again!

On 14/02/07, Graham Page <gpage@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Hi Emma.
>
> Some of this is about confidence and strategy and I suppose some of it
> relates to trust.
>
> I do get out and about a lot because of work and I will buy things in the
> shops.
>
> If we leave aside your alergy to certain kinds of rubber and your
> difficulty
> feeling the number 5 I can suggest possible options but these 2 issues
> alone
> are in reality perhaps the 2 most important.
>
> When I use Chip and Pin, I hand the card to the shop assistant to put in
> the
> machine.  The assistant does all the necessary button pressing and tells
> me
> when to enter the pin.  there is a gap between the assistant actually
> putting in the card and pressing any buttons and me being required to
> enter
> the pin.  During this time I examine the keypad.  There is almost always a
> dot on the 5 and the enter key is almost always bottom right and often it
> has either a circle or a straight line on it.  If there is not a button on
> the 5 I get the assistant to show me where the button is.
>
> I have not been in many shops where the amount of english spoken by the
> counter staff is so poor that this information cannot be communicated,
> even
> in London.
>
> I think that I would not like to risk pressing certain kinds of rubber
> however if I had a phobia of them or if it caused me to have a rash or
> something.
>
> How you get round the alergy problem though is an interesting issue.  If
> the
> pads were the same shape and size you could have a cover that goes over
> the
> pad I suppose.  Are there some materials that have a tendancy to cause
> more
> reactions when touched than others, is rubber or latex one of those
> materials?
>
> Regards
>
> Graham
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Emma Wright" <emmajane9@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 3:20 PM
> Subject: [access-uk] Re: chip and pin, cash machines and the likeRe: Re:
> COUNCIL POLICY TO WAIVE SIGNATURE WHEN VOTING BY POST
>
>
> Graham,
>
> I can use my local cash machine as my fianc=E9 has shown me how to do
> it, however, I having tried it I have four problems with chip and pin.
>  1) Each machine is different and it is very hard to work out where to
> put the card e.g top, bottom, side, which way around. ) Each machine
> goes through a different order of what you need to do, some you need
> to press enter to confirm an amount, then enter your pin, some you
> enter your pin only.  And you often have to wait while it is
> processing without knowing when the machine is ready for you to press
> the next button. 3) The buttons do not have any audio feedback (unlike
> my local cashpoint) so you can't be sure if they have been pressed
> hard enough, or at all.  4) Some of the machines have buttons which
> are made of latex, which I am allergic to and avoid at all costs!  The
> former three could have been addressed by making machines universally
> similar (i.e. the card always goes in the bottom of the machine with
> the chip - which you can feel - towards you and facing up), having the
> software universal so you always get asked the same questions (or of
> course it could speak what it wants you to enter but that isn't ever
> going to happen) and having the buttons beep when you press them.
> It's a shame it didn't happen.
>
> I can't use the paying in machine in my local branch either as the
> numbers are a flat panel with pictures rather than being individually
> raised buttons.  Again, poor design.
>
> It doesn't help that I don't have great feeling in my fingers and
> often can't feel the raised dot of the 5.
>
> See I'm stuffed!
>
> Emma
>
> On 14/02/07, Graham Page <gpage@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > Hi emma.
> >
> > Could I ask why you can't use chip and pin?  Is it due to physical
> > reason=
> s
> > such as poor feeling in your hands or no hands at all or is it just a
> > cas=
> e
> > of never having been shown?
> >
> > I asked this because I met a visually impaired person through work
> > recent=
> ly
> > who could not use chip an pin technology for no good reason than not
> > bein=
> g
> > shown.
> >
> > To see what would happen, I tried an experiment.  I had to pay money
> > into
> > the natwest recently by cheque and while doing this I asked the
> > assistant
> > about this and was told that you just used the number pad though all are
> > slightly different.  This was probably the assistant just trying to use
> > h=
> er
> > own initiative.  From my experience she is partly right though buttons
> > ar=
> e
> > generally in the same places.  I find that enter is usually bottom right
> > =
> and
> > there is generally a dot or feelable marker on 5.
> >
> > If for whatever reason you cannot physically use your hands to access
> > the
> > buttons, is there allowance made in shops for you to sign instead?
> >
> > Using chip and pin or using your local cash point machine independently
> > i=
> s
> > something rehab officers could help all of us to do, but I suppose they
> > a=
> re
> > often stretched and involved with giving people the confidence to
> > perform
> > more basic tasks such as preparing food to eat etc, which are all
> > particularly important to people who are losing or have just lost their
> > sight. other things tend to get just left by the wayside because of lack
> > =
> of
> > time and personell I suppose.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Graham
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Emma Wright" <emmajane9@xxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 2:41 PM
> > Subject: [access-uk] Re: COUNCIL POLICY TO WAIVE SIGNATURE WHEN VOTING
> > BY
> > POST
> >
> >
> > I agree with that, I Have to sign my back card so why not a form for
> > the council? However, I do worry as I know my signature varies a lot
> > and its never been queried, even though I can't use chip and pin.  I
> > guess they see the white stick and realise I might have trouble - I
> > just hope that if my card gets stolen it isn't by someone else who
> > looks similarly vulnerable!
> >
> > Emma
> >
> > On 14/02/07, Carol Pearson <carol.pearson@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > We've recently completed forms, together with our signatures, as our
> > > Council
> > > wished to introduce new regulations regarding postal voting.  They
> > > stat=
> e
> > > that they wished to know if our signature differed each time and that,
> > > =
> if
> > > so, an exemption from signing may be in order.
> > >
> > > After somewhat of an uphill route (with all the running on our part),
> > > w=
> e
> > > have established that they have looked at our signatures and decided
> > > to
> > > send
> > > us Waiver Forms.
> > >
> > > I am really just seeking views of others on list as to whether you
> > > feel
> > > it's
> > > best to have your own signature (which friends are sure cannot be
> > > reproduced) or to have such a "waiver" so that no signature is
> > > required=
> .
> > >
> > > I rather feel, after all, that if banks accept our signatures and
> > > don't
> > > make
> > > a fuss, the Council should do likewise.
> > >
> > > Any comments are welcome - on or off list.
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > >
> > > --

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