[access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.

  • From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 16:58:23 +0100

Hi Catherine,

I totally agree with what you are saying.  Where we may part company is in
the fact, and Tink has already indicated that this is so, is that people who
claim to be experts in accessibility, whatever that means, I am no expert,
say that a web site is inaccessible, and when you look at that site, you
notice they have only had a cursory look.  And those people tend to be the
most vocal in shouting this web site is inaccessible.  I just wish more care
was taken.

As for the study, I would have to read into it more, before I could comment
on that figure, but it does sound pretty inaccurate to me.  There are more
sites in my view that are not usable, as opposed to being inaccessible, and
those are the ones I believe that George alluded to.  Because he couldn't
find the information, it probably makes the site unusable, rather than
inaccessible to him.  I don't like the accessible word at all, when it comes
to web sites, I wish people would test more on usability.

All the best
--
Computer Room Services:  the long cane for blind computer users.
Telephone Voice:  +44(0)1438 742286, Fax/BBS:  +44(0)1438 759589
mobile:  +44(0)7956 334938, 
Email:  Steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
Web site:  http://www.comproom.co.uk  

-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Catherine Turner
Sent: 01 September 2005 15:21
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.

Steve I think you over-simplify the issues.

Re people's competence levels, non-VI people have a variety of levels of
incompetence too.  They, too, complain about not being able to use software,
websites, whatever.  Obviously in an ideal world everyone would be perfect
at using their screen readers, but that's not going to happen.  Everyone
here knows the problems there are about cost of training etc.  Plus, let's
be honest, the amount of effort a VI person has to put in with their screen
reader to get information out is considerably more than a non-VI does with a
mouse and their eyes.  I know it's like this for VI people and a whole range
of tasks/issues, but at the same time I say it's perfectly reasonable to
expect designers to design for accessibility by following guidelines and
building on their knowledge/experience of these issues, which will help that
gap to be minimised.

Re the percentage of accessible sites.  Well various studies have been done.
I don't know the ins and outs of all of them, and I expect if I looked into
it I would find some faults with them as I would with studies of all types.
I do know, however, that the study conducted for the DRC by City University
was done by people with considerable knowledge of accessibility/usability
and related issues; used a representative sample of testers in terms of age,
experience, technology used etc; and looked at a massive variety of websites
from different sectors.  That study found 81% of sites tested lacked
evidence of any attempt to make their site accessible.  I don't want to get
into trading figures or criticising individual studies, I don't like to do
so unless I research the subject properly and I don't have the time right
now; but we must remember that we here are individual users (most of us
pretty experienced); we probably tend to look at certain websites or certain
types of websites time and time again; studies like the one done by City for
the DRC take into account and  properly measure/investigate the experience
of users, not Steve or Catherine or whoever.

Re people who "won't" upgrade I'm sure we all know that there are issues of
affordability here.  Most VIs are unemployed, and we know the cost of access
technology is high.  Also, designers should and often do take into account
how their page will render on different platforms/browser versions; they
draw a line somewhere in terms of browser versions they will design for; and
I think they should do the same for access technology.

Catherine

> -----Original Message-----
> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On 
> Behalf Of Steve Nutt
> Sent: 01 September 2005 11:54
> To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.
>
>
> Hi Tink,
>
> Trouble is, there are people with influence saying these sites are 
> inaccessible, due to their lack of competence, so other people believe 
> them.
>
> All the best
> --
> Computer Room Services:  the long cane for blind computer users.
> Telephone Voice:  +44(0)1438 742286, Fax/BBS:  +44(0)1438 759589
> mobile:  +44(0)7956 334938,
> Email:  Steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Web site:  http://www.comproom.co.uk
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On 
> Behalf Of Tink Watson
> Sent: 01 September 2005 10:25
> To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.
>
> Kevin,
>
>     I think you're absolutely right when you say that sites are not 
> always as inaccessible as people believe them to be, but that leads to 
> the supposition that it isn't the accessibility of the web site that 
> is subjective, but the degree of competence displayed by the user that is.
>
> Tink.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "kevin and emma" <kream@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 10:12 AM
> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.
>
>
> > hi steve, agreed totally! i get fed up with people screaming about 
> > inaccessible websites, and blaming the company whose site it is. has 
> > it not ever occurred to someone, "hang on, maybe i'm the problem
> here?" not only
> > do
> > different screen readers perform differently with the same sites, 
> > but different versions of the same SR do. it's just too easy to
> blame someone
> > else for a website you struggle with instead of admitting that
> maybe your
> > not using your access technology to the best of it's ability.
> and no i'm
> > not
> > saying all websites are accessible, i just don't think there's as 
> > many
> > *inaccessible* sites as people seem to claim. buyt this is all
> subjective
> > and down to personal opinion, which is why i don't think the
> whole website
> > accessibility thing will ever be nailed down.
> > Kevin - co-owner/moderator of the blind gamers discussion list 
> > contact me via email/msn:
> > kream@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11:07 PM
> > Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.
> >
> >
> >> Hi Tink,
> >>
> >> I think I am going to disagree with you, accessibility is
> subjective.  If
> >> you try a web site with one screen reader, and it isn't
> accessible, does
> >> that make it inaccessible?  Only for that person using that screen 
> >> reader.
> >> If you then find another screen reader renders it perfectly
> accessible to
> >> that same user, after training, for example, does that
> suddenly make that
> >> web site accessible?  Accessibility is as subjective as usability 
> >> in my view.
> >>
> >> All the best
> >> --
> >> Computer Room Services:  the long cane for blind computer users.
> >> Telephone Voice:  +44(0)1438 742286, Fax/BBS:  +44(0)1438 759589
> >> mobile:  +44(0)7956 334938,
> >> Email:  Steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> Web site:  http://www.comproom.co.uk
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf
> > Of
> >> Tink Watson
> >> Sent: 31 August 2005 20:11
> >> To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.
> >>
> >> DJ,
> >>
> >> Good question. I'll measure each site against the Web Content 
> >> Accessibility Guidelines from the W3C, but will also take into 
> >> account how each site feels to use in practical terms.
> >>
> >> I should stress that I won't be writing the piece for In Touch, but 
> >> am just conducting some investigations for one of their team
> for a piece
> >> ther hoping to do later this Autumn. I'll recommend that care
> is taken to
> >> keep everything in perspective, but I know they are an
> experienced team.
> > The
> >> In Touch team member I'm working for is also visually
> impaired, so again
> >> there is good knowledge there.
> >>
> >> I'm going to disagree with the suggestion that accessibility is 
> >> subjective though. *Smile.
> >>
> >> Ensuring that everyone has access to something is objective, the 
> >> subjective part is it's usability.
> >>
> >> It's a question of where the responsibility lies. I believe that it 
> >> is the responsibility of the site owner to ensure that it is as 
> >> accessible and usable as possible. It is the responsibility of the 
> >> user to ensure
> > they
> >> have the right skills and technology to use it.
> >>
> >> I don't want to wade into discussions about the availability and 
> >> cost of assisstive technology, that's not what I'm meaning.
> I'm thinking
> >> more along the lines of motorways only being accessible if you
> have a car
> >> and you are licenced to drive it.
> >>
> >> Accessibility is about making sure someone, anyone, can access 
> >> information. Usability is about how easy that information is to 
> >> access and that's where it becomes truly subjective. It's one of 
> >> the reasons why
> > there
> >> is so little in the way of guidelines for usability, although the 
> >> WCAG metnioned above do sway a little in that direction as you near 
> >> the
> > Priority
> >> 3 level checkpoints.
> >>
> >> The end goal of what I'm doing now, is to produce some information 
> >> about sites that have special offers online, but not available over 
> >> the phone or in person, Sites that are accessible and easy to use,
> Companies
> >> that make special offers or discounts to people with disabilities, 
> >> in fact anything that focuses on the whole area of disability, web 
> >> sites, iscounts and so forth.
> >>
> >> Tink.
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf
> > Of
> >> Dj Paddy
> >> Sent: 31 August 2005 15:07
> >> To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.
> >>
> >> Hi Tink.
> >>
> >> How will you determine what is a, "Accessible", web site?
> >>
> >> I am not wanting to be argumentative here.  smiles
> >>
> >> Will you refer to W3C?
> >>
> >> I hope that in any conclusion and/or opening it is stressed that, 
> >> "Accessible", is still a subjective term.  And that lack of
> knowledge, (I
> >> don't personally believe training is always the answer ,
> although this is
> >> something that can help but I don't believe it's called for as much 
> >> as
> > it's
> >> suggested)  Bottom line in tech support mainstream or otherwise the 
> >> end
> > user
> >> is allot more at fault than the site in this case.  Often due
> to them not
> >> having the skills for whatever reason to use their 
> >> adaptive/mainstream and general operating system to it' sfull 
> >> capacity to gain access.
> >>
> >> OK, now I've made those big sweeping remarks I should include
> a website
> >> or
> >> few I suppose?
> >>
> >> Although I don't think there's many sites that are
> inaccessible in their
> >> entirety.
> >>
> >> N'ways why not include
> >>
> >> www.thinkgeek.com
> >>
> >> www.paypal.co.uk
> >>
> >> www.google.com (.co.uk)
> >>
> >> My hosting company
> >>
> >> www.dhosting.co.uk
> >>
> >> The guys even got keyboard shortcuts on there.
> >>
> >> www.ebay.co.uk
> >>
> >> Who actually have buttons you can hit on to have standard web forms 
> >> on instead of Java.  But who have no audio authentication system in 
> >> place but paypal that they push and partner with do?
> >>
> >> Anyways it's a place I spent a small fortune on over the past few 
> >> weeks
> > and
> >> was quite miffed that I had to get a mate to change my email
> address for
> > me
> >> because of the graphical auth system.
> >>
> >> I could go on....
> >>
> >> You may wish to look at the links on Tom's site
> whitestick.co.uk and even
> >> the favourites page on jfwlite as well.
> >>
> >> Dj Paddy
> >> "It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, It is by the 
> >> beans of
> > Java
> >> that thoughts acquire speed, The hands acquire shaking, the shaking
> > becomes
> >> a warning, It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion."
> >> -- Popular Usenet Sig
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Tink Watson" <tink@xxxxxxxxxx>
> >> To: "Access UK" <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Vi Gen Access"
> >> <vi-genaccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 2:00 PM
> >> Subject: [access-uk] Really good, accessible web sites.
> >>
> >>
> >> > Good afternoon,
> >> >
> >> >    Continuing with my research on behalf of Radio 4's In Touch 
> >> > program, I'm hoping you can help with recommendations for really 
> >> > good accessible web sites.
> >> >
> >> >    I know that a perfectly accessible and usable web site is 
> >> > still something of a rarity, but certainly in my own experience, 
> >> > there are shops
> >>
> >> > online where I can carry out my shopping without too much grief.
> >> >
> >> >    If anyone can recommend a web site from the following 
> >> > categories that is easy to use, that would be great:
> >> >
> >> > Travel
> >> > CD's etc
> >> > Food Supermarkets
> >> > Finance,Insurance
> >> > Entertainment
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >    The idea is to praise those companies who appear to be making 
> >> > an effort
> >>
> >> > or who have taken steps in the right direction.
> >> >
> >> >    Please reply off list to tink@xxxxxxxxxx or on list if you 
> >> > feel others would benefit from sharing your recommendations.
> >> >
> >> > Thanks,
> >> > Tink.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > http://www.tink.co.uk/
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