[access-uk] Re: National Library: Audio books in synthetic speech trial
- From: "Steve Bennett" <steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 09:02:12 +0100
There is an attitude of remoteness that worries me here Ray, especially
when organisations like NLB could quite easy take the easy route in life
and continue to produce Braille books without criticism.
In my opinion the fact they have tried to make their content to others
than readers of Braille is a credit to them. (Especially when their
still so committed to Braille) The associated costs involved with
narration with a human voice are huge even with volunteers. Just look at
the model of RFB&D in the USA. They have umpteen studios with engineers
in specially designed buildings. Even then often these books have 3 or
more different narrators. (Sometimes with a head cold)
Other organisations in the UK have these type of facilities and seek
funding on this basis. What NLB have done is try to make best use of
the existing text files to produce synthesised text and speech Daisy
books. Should we really be asking for human narration from NLB to me
this is the remit of others?
My two penny worth.
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of Ray's Home
Sent: 09 July 2005 13:55
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: National Library: Audio books in synthetic
speech trial
Yes indeed Steve, it is faster to produce a book using text to speech.
It is cheaper too. That's my worry. This is being driven just as much
by economics as it is for keeping up with the changing times and the
declining numbers of Braille readers. Braille itself, of course, is
exspensive to produce.
No doubt if NLB were ever to consider using human readers, then more
funding would have to be found, for this. The organisation of human
recording can be dornting too. nonetheless I think that charities
should be prepared to meet such challenges and not be driven exclusively
by economic imperatives. Otherwise, why have charities? Some people in
the disability rights movement would have plenty to say on that, but I
shall not go there. Ray
Personal emails: Email me at
mailto:ray-48@xxxxxxxx
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 11:45 AM
Subject: [access-uk] Re: National Library: Audio books in synthetic
speech trial
> Hi Ray,
>
> I think but I don't know for sure, that NLB's idea was speed. It is
> quite slow to produce a book read by a human being, because you have
> to record it in real time, whereas to produce a Daisy structured book
> using TTS, is relatively fast.
>
> All the best
> --
> Computer Room Services: the long cane for blind computer users.
> Telephone Voice: +44(0)1438 742286, Fax/BBS: +44(0)1438 759589
> mobile: +44(0)7956 334938,
> Email: Steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Web site: http://www.comproom.co.uk
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> Behalf Of Ray's Home
> Sent: 09 July 2005 11:26
> To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [access-uk] Re: National Library: Audio books in synthetic
> speech trial
>
> Not sure which thread or discussion you might be refering to, but I
> am Not sure that the 'majority' have been heard from, here at least.
> what would be wrong in NLB getting into human reading of books, which
> needn't and shouldn't mean duplicating of Talking Book titles. Maybe
> that the 'evidence' from their own findings might suggest that too.
>
> No doubt change is inevitable, but a crude majoritarian view isn't
> what is called for.
>
>
> Ray
>
> Personal emails: Email me at
> mailto:ray-48@xxxxxxxx
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Bennett" <steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 10:50 AM
> Subject: [access-uk] Re: National Library: Audio books in synthetic
> speech trial
>
>
>> Hi
>>
>> The one thing that can be concluded from this discussion is everybody
>> has a different preferences! The choice for NLB is quite clear to
>> me, they must resign themselves to please the majority and not all!
>>
>> At least this way the books are available.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
>> Behalf Of Steve Nutt
>> Sent: 06 July 2005 17:56
>> To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: [access-uk] Re: National Library: Audio books in synthetic
>> speech trial
>>
>>
>> Hi Ray,
>>
>> Out of interest, the only concatinated speech I have heard that is
>> anywhere near good, is A T & T Natural voices, and also Neospeech.
>> The others, including Rhetorical, don't come near them. Especially
>> with Natural Voices, you can crank them up quite fast, but nothing
>> like Doubletalk. But if you want human-sounding speech, I think A T
>> & T and Neospeech have it for me. Trouble is, any decent concatinated
>> speech needs quite a beast of a PC.
>>
>> All the best
>> --
>> Computer Room Services: the long cane for blind computer users.
>> Telephone Voice: +44(0)1438 742286, Fax/BBS: +44(0)1438 759589
>> mobile: +44(0)7956 334938,
>> Email: Steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Web site: http://www.comproom.co.uk
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
>> Behalf Of Ray's Home
>> Sent: 06 July 2005 16:29
>> To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: [access-uk] Re: National Library: Audio books in synthetic
>> speech trial
>>
>> I am sorry, but I just don't know where people are coming from if
>> they say synthetic speech has improved over the last five years.
>>
>> Dectalk has remained the same for me. Eloquence, little difference,
>> except the various voices and accents, like UK English.
>>
>> Others I've only heard via Main Menu, so maybe its not fair to judge
>> them. Suffice it to say that sometimes they're going to fast for me
>> to understand.
>>
>> Dolphins orphious I find much too monotone and it bores a hole in my
>> ear after listening to it for any length of Time. I still like the
>> Apollo 2, which I am using now, though it won't stand too much
>> winding up in speed. One thing I always liked about the older Dolphin
>> synths was the 'prosody parameter which gave variation to the pitch
>> and made it easier on the ear.
>>
>> I guess Double talk is quite good at fast speeds, and I believe
>> Dolphin are trying to combine clarity and intelligibility, along with
>> responsiveness in the latest versions of their concatenated speech.
>> Ray
>>
>> Personal emails: Email me at
>> mailto:ray-48@xxxxxxxx
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Tony Cretney" <rac@xxxxxxxx>
>> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 2:53 PM
>> Subject: [access-uk] Re: National Library: Audio books in synthetic
>> speech trial
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I think I probably agree with you about eth sound from speech
>>> synthesisers
>>
>>> about five years ago. However, I think that in modern times they
>>> are
>>> much
>>
>>> better tha\than they were then. I'm using Zoom Text 9.0 beta
>>> screen
>> reader
>>> and that seems to be excellent and also quite fast and clear. I
>>> suspect
>> that
>>> you may well be right in regard to older people who have no
>>> experience
>>
>>> of
>>> these things on computers, it could well be quite difficult fro them
>> to
>> get
>>> into the habit of listening to one of these. I have not been using
>>> a
>> screen
>>> reader for very long and can only imagine what they might have been
>>> like
>>> five years ago.
>>>
>>> Tony
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "James O'Dell" <jamesodell@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 12:04 PM
>>> Subject: [access-uk] Re: National Library: Audio books in synthetic
>> speech
>>
>>> trial
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> well now that we have listenable synthesised speech that isn't too
>>>> intrusive I'd agree with you, but five years ago I don't think it
>>>> was
>>
>>>> really of an acceptable quality for reading literature. Also
>> remember
>>>> that a lot of older blind people have hearing difficulties, and
>>>> might
>>
>>>> never have used a computer with a speech synthesiser before.
>>>>
>>>> James
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Angel" <angel238@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 10:18 AM
>>>> Subject: [access-uk] Re: National Library: Audio books in synthetic
>> speech
>>>> trial
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I think we blind people are spoiled in that we don't want to
>>>>>tolerate
>>
>>>>>synthetic speech for reading. Sighted people have to use their own
>>>>>skills to read unless they are reading an audio book. If they
read
>>>>>well or not they have to tolerate their failings as readers but
they
>>
>>>>>do get the job done, and we seem to just have to have human
>>>>>speech.
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Ray's Home" <rays-home@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 5:18 PM
>>>>> Subject: [access-uk] Re: National Library: Audio books in
synthetic
>>>>> speech
>>>>> trial
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Nice to have your thoughts Maggie and others on books read using
>>>>>> text
>> to
>>>>> speech in DAISY format proposed by NLB.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I should say that I was reminded of this experiment by someone
>>>>>> I've known
>>>>> for a long time who much prefers Braille as a medium for reading
>>>>> novels, though he is of an older generation. He realises,
however,
>>>>> that Braille simply is not an option for the many of the present
and
>>
>>>>> up-coming generations and, that if NLB is to survive, then it has
>>>>> to
>>
>>>>> move with the times.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My own feeling is that I much prefer reading of books, especially
>>>>>> fiction,
>>>>> to be done by human readers, and preferably those who can put some
>>>>> expression and drama into an involved reading of the text. We
have
>>>>> to realise though that synthetic, or stitched together human
speech,
>>
>>>>> is being tried out for reasons of quickness and economy, so if a
>>>>> significant number
>>>>> of readers will accept it, then its one way to go.Let us hope that
>> it
>>>>> will
>>>>> get better with time; but we can never hope that it will be the
>>>>> equivalent
>>>>> of human readings.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I use synthetic speech a good deal of course with my computer,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> can
>>>>> withstand a good deal of factual reading this way. What I cannot
>>>>> bend
>> my
>>>>> ears to is the greatly accelerated rate at which many use, and
>>>>> even prefer, to use synthetic speech. Sometimes I wonder if such
>>>>> hypersonic
>> rates of
>>>>> reading serve more as a virility symbol on the part of some:
>>>>> 'Look
>> how
>>>>> fast
>>>>> I can go!' Do they (really enjoy it! Well, I can't. And what's
>>>>> so
>> good
>>>>> about reading so fast? Sure you get through a lot of stuff, but
>>>>> its
>>>>> hardly
>>>>> enjoyment to my ears. Maybe its age on my part, but I prefer
life,
>> or
>>>>> reading, in the slow lane, thanks very much.
>>>>>> Ray
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Personal emails: Email me at
>>>>>> mailto:ray-48@xxxxxxxx
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Maggie norton" <maggie.norton@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 5:12 PM
>>>>>> Subject: [access-uk] Re: National Library: Audio books in
>>>>>> synthetic
>>
>>>>>> speech
>>>>> trial
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > Hi Ray,
>>>>>> > I took part in the trial and found the synthetic voices very
>>>>>> > hard work! I think they were pleased with the feedback they
>>>>>> > received! Personally, if it meant I could have faster access to
>>>>>> > newly
>> published
>>>>> books,
>>>>>> > I would suffer it!
>>>>>> > Maggie
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > I can be contacted on:-
>>>>>> > MSN Messenger;
>>>>>> > Skype (vipmags);
>>>>>> > TAFN (Ventrilo)
>>>>>> > Mobile 07773 562 085;
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > or maggie.norton@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> > From: "Ray's Home" <rays-home@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> > To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> > Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 2:51 PM
>>>>>> > Subject: [access-uk] National Library: Audio books in synthetic
>> speech
>>>>> trial
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >> Wondered if anyone on list took part in the NLB trial of books
>>>>>> >> read
>>>>>> >> in
>>>>>> >> synthetic, or rather, concatonated speech? If you have, how
>> have
>> you
>>>>>> >> found it?
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Question is prompted by James O'Dell's mentioning just now of
>>>>>> >> the alternative of a DAISY Harry Potter in Synth speech. Ray
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Personal emails: Email me at
>>>>>> >> mailto:ray-48@xxxxxxxx
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
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