[access-uk] Re: My experiences moving over to Window Eyes

Hi Dave,

Because you are not used to it.

The WE method gives you more flexibility.  You can't in JAWS go to the fifth
edit box from the top for example.  I often do things like this with sites
that I know.  So I would rather the flexibility of control mode search.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Dave Taylor
Sent: Wednesday 12 May 2010 10:27
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: My experiences moving over to Window Eyes

How complicated is that? I would argue that a function that requires three
keypresses is virtually useless, and because if makes what could be many
popular functions into 2 key functions when they could be one key functions,
it really is useless. Why can't the numbers just take you straight to a
heading of that level unless n is pressed first though? I just think this is
an example of WE being too clunky!



-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 10:16 PM
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: My experiences moving over to Window Eyes

Hi Dave,

You can already find the next heading level 4, just press 4H.  It is two
keys to JAWS' one key, but it does the same.

To find the fourth heading which is different, you just press N for next
control, then h4.  So it does both, you just didn't find it <Smile>.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Dave Taylor
Sent: Tuesday 11 May 2010 13:24
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: My experiences moving over to Window Eyes

I must admit, I've tried moving over to Window Eyes and found various things
so frustrating that I just can't get round them. They mainly relate to
navigating websites and documents. For instance, I'd rather be able to find
the next heading at level 4 rather than the 4th next heading, and Window
Eyes does not handle dynamic content anything like as well as Jaws as far as
I can tell. I believe a browser rewrite is on the way to resolve some of
this though. 

Then there are things that are just annoying personally, like having to
reach all the way up to the escape key to stop reading and not being able to
use escape for its normal function during reading, adding lots of extra
keystrokes to mail reading in particular. Using a netbook I also find key
keystrokes very hard. While I accept you can change them in both screen
readers, the more you need to do this, the harder it is for people to help
each other.

Talking of needing special modes, what's this about Tables Mode in Window
Eyes? Jaws doesn't need a mode for them, and then there's the Outlook
Calendar. I must admit I like the WE approach to it as it is really easy to
use, but it is another special mode. 

Probably the biggest thing that keeps me with Jaws though is the ability to
save settings on a per website basis, since I do largely agree with what
people say about FS.

If you think Jaws is bad, try the PAC Mate! Great philosophy but too big and
operation is very clunky compared to the other note takers! I once opened a
word document in a Braille Sense and it took 10 seconds. On the PAC Mate,
the same document took about 90 seconds! It was large and would have taken a
little time even on a computer!

Cheers
Dave


-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Jackie Cairns
Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 1:13 PM
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: My experiences moving over to Window Eyes

Hi Barry

As you have initiated the thread on this list, I will just echo my personal
frustrations and say that I too am about to defect full-time to Window-Eyes
for exactly the same reasons as yourself.  I would go further by saying that
I know at least three others who are doing likewise.

As you know, I am leaving Sight and Sound next week as an employee, and I
have no animosity towards my employers as I have enjoyed two very happy
years with them.  But, as an end user, and a JAWS person for 11 years, I
feel it is time to move because I am also against the practices of Freedom
Scientific, the bugginess of the program itself, and its licensing gravy
train.  There just comes a point when you feel enough is enough!

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, I'll remember them when I too hurl bad
language at my PC, (smile).


Jackie Cairns
Braille Specialist
Email: jackie.cairns@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sight and Sound Technology Ltd
Welton House North Wing
Summerhouse Road
Moulton Park
Northampton
NN3 6WD
Tel: 01604 798024
Mob: 07887 883815
www.sightandsound.co.uk
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Barry Toner
Sent: 11 May 2010 12:17
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] My experiences moving over to Window Eyes

Hi all,

I started writing this late last night and ran out of steam.  I posted it to
the GWMICRO-INFO list under the thread of I've Something To Say.

It's not the best piece I've ever written but I wanted to share my
experiences with you all as a long-term JAWS user.

Messege Starts

" I can also chime in on this thread with a personal tale.

I have been using Window Eyes on and off for around 6 years.

I lost my sight in an accident when I was18 years old.  I frustrated myself
with Hal for about 2 years and then I found JAWS.  Whilst it did not replace
being able to use Windows with sight it was a breath of fresh air compared
to Hal 4.2.  Especially when it came to surfing the Internet.  This would
have been JAWS 3.7 I started with.

I've watched the decline of JAWS over the years in terms of problems not
being fixed, new ones being introduced and generally allot of half-baked
product development going through out onto the market.  Not to mention as I
see them very fluffy plug ins and the nightmare that has always existed JAWS
licensing.

Despite these failings I was not prepared to move outside of my comfort
zone.  Even at the time when my peers where doing so and I would have most
benefited from their support and vice versa.

In saying this I completed two Computer Science Degrees using JAWS.  Though
having learnt what I have in the past weeks things just as a fact would have
been allot easier with Window Eyes.  What's that old saying though?  About
heinsight being twenty twenty.

Just over three weeks back I decided I wanted to learn to use Window Eyes.
I didn't' say too much to friends who would only think that we'd been there
before.  When they tried to get me to see the light, so to speak.

I sat down and thought how best to approach Window Eyes this time.
Something that would be different from previous half-hearted attempts to
give the product a fair go.

So, I decided I would use Window Eyes and no other screen reader for 1 full
week.  No matter what task I needed to do on the computer.  I made a
commitment despite my tasks priority to use Window Eyes.  I was determined
to learn how to do it with Window Eyes.

This was allot harder than it may sound.  Especially as I'm really not that
much of a committed person when it comes to Window Eyes.  Or rather I
wasn't.

So I unloaded JAWS and installed Win Eyes v7.11 onto my Windows 7 32Bit
Desktop.

I really needed to make this a genuine attempt.  I decided to make it a
social experiment instead of a hardcore, I'm going to do this and if I go
back to JAWS I've failed.  So I announced on my twitter and Face Book feeds
what I was going to do.  I then sent updates several times a day including
@gwmicro in the thread of the good, bad and ugly.


Let me tell you the language I through at the computer for the first three
days was disgraceful!  But when I learned how to use the Mouse Keys, started
to read sections of the excellently layed out manual, joined this list and
discovered Script Central I started to get a  bit excited.

One of my main frustrations was the amount of times v7.11 would do odd
things.  By this I mean it would clip words in Outlook 2K7.  Scripts would
crash, Window Eyes would crash if set to load upon log-in.  I discovered
that Window Eyes wasn't as infallible as the fan boys and girls made it out
to be.  Oh yes and I got a healthy taster that no doubt End_users I've
supported as a Systems Engingeer have gotten from me a time or too.  That
of, "uh that's weird"  "It doesnt' do it on my machine like that".  This
maybe true but it's not a helpful response!

So for me it's not been an experience of "The most stable Screen Reader".
JAWS for me still holds that trophy on my system.  Well, it would if it was
still installed.

It's been over three weeks and I've not went back despite user error
problems and bugs with Window Eyes.

Now, it is fair to say that a new user of a product will often make mistakes
through just not knowing.  I'm not exceempt from this.  However, there's
allot going on in a person learning a new thing.  Whither that is a computer
program, folding lawndry etc.

So why might you ask despite the problems I had and in some cases like the
clipping words didn't' I just do the easy thing and switch back?  Simple,
I'd decided I'd rather put up with some problems that can either be worked
round or ignored until they are either fixed or I'm told of something I'm
not doing to get Window Eyes to do what I want.  In doing so I get the
wonderful functionality and fresh approach Window Eyes has given to my
computing.  This compared to the stale product that did, serve me well for a
time but has frankly become a bit of a farse in comparison.  I.E. JAWS.

I used to believe that JAWS and Window Eyes both had their place.  I
believed this kept me nutral and made me unlike The Zellots, (as I saw them
at the time), who sat in each camp throwing muck back and forth.

I find myself looking on at other people in my life who are using JAWS and
struggling and want to cry out to them.  Look, you dont' need to carry on
with those bad habits you learned with JAWS.  Tabbing all over the screen
and not using keystrokes in say,and Installer Wizard of alt n for Next.

It's incredible the amount of JAWS users who are not aware of how to use the
JAWS Cursor.  that's a real bug bear of mine now having used Window Eyes
mouse Keys.  the fact you need to completely switch to a different mode then
back to the PC Cursor mode.  no wonder people get confused!

I could detail my own feelings on a lengthy list of JAWS short comings not
to mention the iresponsable way Freedom Scientific treat customers.  I'd
only be preaching to the crowd and end up falling into the camp of "My ones
bigger than yours".

I'd like to think i can lead by example to people I know that use JAWS and I
see struggling with the mindset it forces on people of the old and
comfortable.  By letting them see my completley fresh approach and no longer
fear of trying something new just for fun.  Sadly though I'm a geek and I
believe most of my friends will discount what I'm doing as down to that.
rather than, "I could be having that much fun and productivity as well".

Trailing off a bit as I need to get out before the rain starts here!"

Barry Toner


BCS Belfast Branch
YPG Representative & Disability Group

http://www.bcs.org/server.php?show=nav.10444



Contact me @

Professional:  barry.toner@xxxxxxxxxx

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AIM/FB:  barry@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

TWITTER: dj_paddy

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