[access-uk] Re: MP3'S FROM PLAY.COM

Hello

Following discussion on this thread about this, I did some trials converting
one song (4minutes 15 seconds in length) from WAV to FLAC lossless and three
lossy formats that Goldwave supports - these illustrate the relative sizes
of files involved for a single track.

WAV (lossless uncompressed) - 44Mb 
FLAC (lossless compressed) - 24Mb
Average MP3, OGG, WMA (lossy compressed) - 7.8 Mb at 256 kbps

The relative file sizes of the above formats agree broadly with the
published figures; in this example the price of duplicating the original CD
quality is about three time the file size of the lossy compressed formats
such as MP3 at 256 kbps.

Regards
Isaac
   
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Isaac Porat
Sent: 28 January 2009 00:46
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: MP3'S FROM PLAY.COM

Hello Gordon

I am afraid I can't help with your questions as I don't use these players
much.

I use cdEX for ripping, it uses the freedb music naming database which so
far I found good.

I am exploring now the practicality of ripping my CDs to FLAC lossless which
is the most supported lossless format.
Converting between lossless to another lossless is no problem if you find
the program to do so;  definitely you can convert from WMA lossless to FLAC
(I don't propose you do that if WMP does the job well for you).  Don't know
about tools to convert between Apple lossless and other lossless formats.
The beauty about lossless is that you don't have to make a decision now; you
can always convert from lossless to another lossless without loosing quality
later, I don't know about the ability to retrieve the tags (or correct them
later) These database identify your music by the length of the track and
their order (and perhaps other parameters) so in theory it should be
possible  .

Regards
Isaac

 

-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
G. McFarlane
Sent: 27 January 2009 00:47
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: MP3'S FROM PLAY.COM

Hi Isaac
Many thanks for your clear explanation. It's very helpful.
I have one other query, slightly related.
I've ripped my collection into wma lossless. Media Player does not appear to
recognise as many of these CDs as Itunes did when I first ripped them in
Itunes as MP3s.
2 things then,1. IF I were to convert these wma lossless files into itunes
lossless would this allow them to be renamed in Itunes?
2. IF I leave them as wma lossless, is there a way in Media Player of using
another naming database?
Gordon
----- Original Message -----
From: "Isaac Porat" <isaac@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 5:36 AM
Subject: [access-uk] Re: MP3'S FROM PLAY.COM


> Hi Gordon
>
> WAV is uncompressed - exact replica of the original quality  - very 
> big file size.
>
> All the lossless formats are compressed but when played the audio is 
> restored to an exact replica of the original quality (like WAV).
> FLAC, apple lossless, WMA lossless do it in a different ways but the 
> result is very much the same about half of the original wav file size 
> so saves a lot of space compared to WAV without sacrificing any 
> quality - they all do the same in the sense that quality is exact 
> replica of the original.
>
>  FLAC is the most popular but support is not wide spread yet - you 
> need plugin for the various players.
> Lossless is good for archiving as you don't loose quality and you can 
> convert between one lossless to another without sacrificing anything 
> so it was adopted widely by various broadcasters.
>
> Converting from lossless to lossy is fine - the lossy looses something 
> but with high bps the loss will be minimal - it is exactly like 
> ripping an original CD.
>
> Only specialized stored support lossless at present - because lack of 
> support by players out of the box for a common standard and because 
> the file size is larger than lossy formats - larger downloads.
>
> For practical reasons and maximum compatibility I would stick at 
> present (and purchase) with MP3 the file size may be a bit larger than 
> Aac, WMA and OGG for the same quality but with todays low cost of 
> storage most people would not care.
>
> AAC (which is a second generation format like WMA and OGG) by the way 
> is not an Apple format it is an international standard part of the
> MPEG-3 and
> MPEG-4 specifications.  It may well be that now that Apple removed the 
> DRM (which was not part of the international spec) more players will 
> support it out of the box; time will tell.
>
> The future for the stores I think, will be lossless but this will take 
> some time not least because of the commercial interests involved; WMP 
> and iTunes player wants to support their own lossless format but 
> unlike lossy formats you can convert between these without any loss of 
> quality.
>
> Regards
> Isaac
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On 
> Behalf Of G. McFarlane
> Sent: 25 January 2009 23:57
> To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [access-uk] Re: MP3'S FROM PLAY.COM
>
> Hi
> How does wma lossless compare with wav or apple lossless? Are they 
> really lossless? If they're compressed at all then are you better with 
> wav? If you wish to convert to mp3 say at 256 bits is there going to 
> be a difference between doing so with a wav file or a wma lossless 
> file? Indeed are you better just buying apple, amazon or napster mp3 
> at 256 bits?
> Gordon McFarlane
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ibrahim Gucukoglu" <ibrahim_gucukoglu@xxxxxxxx>
> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 5:29 PM
> Subject: [access-uk] Re: MP3'S FROM PLAY.COM
>
>
>> Hi Steve.
>>
>> I take it the 256K stuff what you call ITunes plus is the mp3 content 
>> they do.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 5:25 PM
>> Subject: [access-uk] Re: MP3'S FROM PLAY.COM
>>
>>
>>> Hi Isaac,
>>>
>>> Even that is not quite correct.  If you buy regular DRM stuff from 
>>> iTunes, then it is 128 as you say.  But if you buy iTunes plus 
>>> stuff, then it is
>>> 256
>>> at the very least.
>>>
>>> All the best
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On 
>>> Behalf Of Isaac Porat
>>> Sent: Sunday 25 January 2009 12:26
>>> To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: [access-uk] Re: MP3'S FROM PLAY.COM
>>>
>>> Hi Ibrahim and all
>>>
>>> I did some searching on the Apple store to find the situation...
>>>
>>> I got the impression  that apple sell their music in lossless I was 
>>> wrong.
>>> As far as I can make apple sell their music in the AAC format which 
>>> is lossy in 128 kbps probably as you say.
>>>   So it is lossy not lossless.
>>>
>>> If you use iTunes you can  ripp (if you wish) your CD to Apple 
>>> lossless which means that the music is exactly as the original.
>>> There are other lossless formats the most well known and open source 
>>> is FLAC.  The advantage of this formats is exact replica of the 
>>> original the disadvantage is much bigger file sizes.  Typically 
>>> lossless is 50% of the original where MP3 depending on the quality 
>>> is 20% of the original.
>>>
>>> I agree with you; I would buy MP3 to start with, it is the most 
>>> supported format and any conversion of lossless format to another 
>>> one leads to degradation.  There seems to be an understanding that a 
>>> variable bit rate VBr between 192 and 320 is practically lossless 
>>> for most ears so 256 and 320 constant bit rate are excellent.
>>>
>>> It is a technical fact that converting from a lossy to another lossy 
>>> one (regardless of the bit rate used) is reducing quality because as 
>>> I said, each format shaves a bit of the sound to suit their acoustic 
>>> model of the ear; if you find it acceptable to your ear that is all 
>>> that
> matters.
>>>
>>> Finally on the question of lossless and Lossy formats:
>>>
>>> A Wav file is uncompressed format which is exact replica of the 
>>> original CD.
>>>
>>> FLAC, Apple lossless, MonkeyAudio are all compressed lossless.
>>>
>>> MP3, WMA, OGG and AAC are all compressed lossy.
>>>
>>> I suspect that as the internet speed goes up lossless format will 
>>> become the norm as it is exact replica of the original CD and there 
>>> is no compromise.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Isaac
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On 
>>> Behalf Of Ibrahim Gucukoglu
>>> Sent: 25 January 2009 06:41
>>> To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: [access-uk] Re: MP3'S FROM PLAY.COM
>>>
>>> Hi Isaac.
>>>
>>> ITunes recordings are actually encoded in 128K lossless.  It doesn't 
>>> mean the tracks are lossless, its just the name of the encoding type.
>>> To be honest, having heard tracks I've downloaded from Napster and 
>>> ITunes, you'll get roughly the same quality.  As for converting 
>>> napster to mp3 tracks, well if you buy them from Napster then you 
>>> get
>>> mp3 anyway at 256K, but if your converting them you can set sound 
>>> taxi to encode at 256K, so when it plays through my high end 
>>> speakers I don't notice any degradation in quality and I'd be more 
>>> than happy to send you a sample showing this.  Sound Taxi converts 
>>> digitally so its conversion process aught to be lossless.
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Isaac Porat" <isaac@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2009 9:52 PM
>>> Subject: [access-uk] Re: MP3'S FROM PLAY.COM
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hello Carol
>>>>
>>>> First with play.com you can download files again if you loose them see:
>>>> http://www.play.com/Music/MP3-Download/6-/Help.html?page=playdigita
>>>> l
>>>> faq
>>>>
>>>> The MP3 format is most common meaning that it is supported by all 
>>>> software and hardware players.
>>>> It is a lossy format meaning that you loose some quality during the 
>>>> conversion process ; largely depending on the bit rate.  Of course 
>>>> price can be an issue but I personally would not consider a file 
>>>> encoded in less than
>>>> 196 Kbps; play.com do them in 196 - 320 kbps
>>>>
>>>> The M4A format offered by apple is lossless (also called Apple
>>>> lossless) meaning that it is exactly like the original which is the 
>>>> best (FLAK is another lossless format and there are others).
>>>>
>>>> Converting a file in M4A to MP3 or WMA is feasible, but as these 
>>>> are lossy formats,  you will loose something but in practice at 
>>>> about 256Kbps chances are that you will not notice any difference.
>>>>
>>>> Finally converting from one lossy format such as WMA to another 
>>>> such as
>>>> MP3
>>>> is bad news as you loose quality further; this is because each 
>>>> format uses
>>>
>>>> a
>>>> different acoustic model (related to the sensitivity of the ear to 
>>>> different
>>>> sounds) so put simply each format removes their own bit off the sound.
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>> Isaac
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On 
>>>> Behalf Of Steve Nutt
>>>> Sent: 24 January 2009 19:15
>>>> To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: [access-uk] Re: MP3'S FROM PLAY.COM
>>>>
>>>> Hi Carol,
>>>>
>>>> If you buy from Play, you can't download again if you lose them, so 
>>>> back them up.
>>>>
>>>> If you buy from iTunes, then you can always re-download, but they 
>>>> are not
>>>> MP3 files, but higher quality.  They use Flac files which are M4A.
>>>> These
>>>> can be played with Winamp or Windows Media Player, if you download 
>>>> the right plugin for Windows Media Player.
>>>>
>>>> There are other companies like 7DigitalMedia 
>>>> http://www.7digitalmedia.com that sell them in MP3 format, and you 
>>>> can re-download from them too.
>>>>
>>>> Most stores sell in MP3 or protected WMA formats.  Apple sell in 
>>>> M4A and M4V for video.  These can be converted to MP3 if they are 
>>>> not DRM-protected.
>>>> Apple is removing DRM from their stuff, so I am beginning to like 
>>>> iTunes.
>>>>
>>>> All the best
>>>>
>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On 
>>>> Behalf Of Carol Pearson
>>>> Sent: Saturday 24 January 2009 18:11
>>>> To: Access UK Mailing List
>>>> Subject: [access-uk] MP3'S FROM PLAY.COM
>>>>
>>>> I'm thinking of switching to purchasing MP3's instead of CD's and 
>>>> so here are some questions ...
>>>>
>>>> As always, I apologise that I didn't follow the thread when it was 
>>>> last discussed.  Anyway, here are my questions:
>>>>
>>>> Are MP3's available in various sampling rates etc., and can you buy 
>>>> individual tracks from CD's, or do you have to buy the whole CD 
>>>> where a CD is listed rather than a single track?  Are they all .WAV 
>>>> format and, if you lose them, can you get them again without charge?
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Carol
>>>> carol.pearson29@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>
>>>>
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