I was thinking more of the qwerty keyboard. I don't know much about the Braille keyboard as I'm not a pacmate owner. It may be that by the time you read this someone will have already provided you with a decent explanation. Regards Graham ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ari" <aridamoulakis@xxxxxxxxx> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 9:31 AM Subject: [access-uk] Re: Braille PDA's Thanks Graham, that's very interesting. You mentioned the keyboard driver, does this mean I can then type in UK computer braille as I'd rather love to do that, where can I get it from? It's right what you say about the localisation problems. I wish there was a synthesizer for British English on the PM like I use on my PC. Synthetic speech for it is also expensive! I wanted to put Dutch on because it could read Afrikaans, and the distributor wanted about 299 pounds for the synthesizer! It's interesting that everyone's mentioning the buying of FS products in the UK. Here there used to be two dealers of FS products, but now there's only one, some people are quite upset, saying that FS only gave the right to sell to the one dealer because the other dealer was selling competing products alongside FS products, and now they want to see if there's any possibility of going to our trading authority to complain about that. As my one friend points out, in the normal world where there's many products of different kinds, a company doesn't have the power to force a dealer to only stock its product. Ari ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham Page" <gpage@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 9:38 AM Subject: [access-uk] Re: Braille PDA's Hi Ari. I think the points you make about the PacMate are interesting and I would agree completely. I think the PacMate was really designed with the qwerty keyboard user in mind. Braille was a bit of an afterthought to satisfy popular demand. I think the reverse is true for Braillenote. The QWERTY keyboard is small for many and using the qwerty keyboard for controling the Braillenote will seem a bit odd to users of Windows. Generally though, the 2 products have a fairly similar range of core functions as standard, though PacMate is really a Windows Mobile 2003 PDA in a different case with an integrated Braille display (if that model is chosen), a keyboard and some software to allow for Braille translation etc. This means that Excel documents, for example, are directly supported and you can install extra main stream software. The Braillenote does not support formats like Pocket Excel and mainstream programs will not work with it. Pacmate is not particularly strong on localisation for different countries, though I believe a UK keyboard driver is now available. I think the spell checker is still US english. Pacmate works with Mobile 2003 applications, though with the recent launch of Windows Mobile 2005 the PacMate is crying out for an update. I think the problem you raise concerning the PacMate losing its data if it fully discharges is serious enough, though you can take precautions against this by always saving to a memory card. The problem is worse if the machine crashes during use unexpectedly however as all data is lost. This is a problem with virtually all windows Mobile 2003 devices. Windows Mobile 2005 supports devices with Persistent memory which means they continue to hold data when a battery is flat. You also get much better Word and Excel support with windows Mobile 2005. This has meant that Mobile 2003 syPDAs are now virtually impossible to get and there is no demand for them. Windows Mobile 2005 requires different hardware and the operating systems are not backward compatible. I think it is important that the PacMate is updated to a Windows Mobile 2005 platform soon or any advantage gained by using a less proprietary platform than other notetakers such as the Braillenote will be lost. Braillenote uses a more proprietary platform than PacMate and was designed primarily with users of a Braille keyboard in mind. I have found mine to be reliable and data does not get lost if the batteries lose their charge. Compatibility is probably still the biggest issue with Braillenote. The support for word documents is still similar to that offered in early Windows CE devices. Tables for example, are not supported. Programs such as the Planner, the address list and the database are designed with visually impaired people in mind and some argue that this leads to better productivity. I would say that these are the 2 main products sold in the UK, though Braillesense is a third option though I don't know how well this works. Also, if a Braillesense breaks down I don't know if it can be fixed here or if it has to go back to GWMicro in the US. Regards Graham ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ari" <aridamoulakis@xxxxxxxxx> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 6:47 AM Subject: [access-uk] Re: Braille PDA's Hi all, Just to give some of my thoughts to Ian about braille pdas, as I struggled with the question of which one to buy last year. Here in South Africa, we can only get the braillenote and pac mate. I was thinking of importing an ELba, but the things that put me off was that, even though it's a linux-based, flexible pda, it is much heavier and you don't get source code with it, i.e Papenmeier didn't release it. Reading the manual and posts to the ELba lists, it seemed also as if it was tricky to get the ELba to do some everyday tasks, and there haven't been hardware upgrades for ages. The ELba was OK for its time, but probably now is outdated. I chose the Pac Mate instead of the Braillenote, firstly because I liked the design, and secondly because you could also install other applications onto it, although, since I never was able to get a propper "test-drive" of the braillenote, I sometimes wonder about my decision for the following reasons: I am a student at university who uses the Pac Mate for taking notes and organising my calendar. My two main problems are these: In the braille keyboard model of the PM, calendar entries can't be entered in contracted braille. I also had problems with the word processor, where I can't, for example, do assignments, since you can't create tables, and I don't think it has many formatting options. A major problem with the PM (don't know if it's like that with other notetakers) is that if you don't use it for a long time you have to keep it charging. I made the unfortunate mistake when I had holidays to just leave the PM uncharged for about a week or two, imagine my surprise when I found that I'd lost all my work, installed files, basically everything. For me the PM definitely can't even replace my computer for doing work and assignments. I don't know much about the Braille Sense as we don't have it here, but if anyone wants, I have a text mannual of the ELba. It might be the best solution to really think about a pda with a mobile screenreader and a braille display, but, if like me you enjoy typing in braille, you'd have to probably get a braille keyboard for it. Ari ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 6:04 AM Subject: [access-uk] Re: Braille PDA's Hi Graham, All phones running Talks have the possibility of using Braille. I myself drive an N70 with a Braillino, using Braille input, and it is great. N70 in your pocket, Braillino round your neck, and you're good to go. All the best -- Computer Room Services: the long cane for blind computer users. Telephone Low-call: 08452 606 277 International: +44(0)1438 742286, Fax: +44(0)1438 759589 mobile: +44(0)7956 334938, Email: mailto:Steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx Web site: http://www.comproom.co.uk -----Original Message----- From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Graham Page Sent: 29 November 2006 22:41 To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [access-uk] Re: Braille PDA's Hi Ian. While I accept that loads of messages to the list saying the same thing could cause a serious upsurge in traffic, I think the general question and particularly its findings may be of interest. So will you be in a position to send details of what you find to the list? Secondly, you have mentioned the main UK contenders in Braillelite, Pacmate, Braillenote/voicenote and the braille sense. I know there were products like the Elba which looked interesting too but don't think that ever got off the ground, certainly in the UK. Are you also counting Mainstream PDAs with Braille displays or Braille keyboards? there are a number of solutions in this field though I think most would work better with QWERTY keyboards, Braille displays can also be attached. There's the Hal screenreader with a PDA such as the Dell Axim and also the Maestro software which can be bundled with Trekker. I don't know if Maestro has Braille dribers yet though. Humanware would. TALKS can, in theory, be used with a Braille display though I don't know of anything but the communicator being used in this way. It would certainly be interesting to know which poortable Braille solution is most popular however. Regards graham ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Beverley" <iancbev@xxxxxxxxxxx> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; <brailleuk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 9:38 PM Subject: [access-uk] Braille PDA's Hi guys I have some questions that I hope as many of you as possible could help me with. Now this is not part of any scientific research, but is really a plea for thoughts and opinions. Unless, anybody feels that this would be of more general interest, could you reply to me off-list by using the details given at the bottom of this E-mail. Furthermore, I'll put my work E-mail address on there too, so it does at least give options. For the purposes of this, I'm counting a Braille PDA as counting anything from the BrailleNote to PacMate, BrailleSense to the Braille Lite and anything around this area. 1. For those who have one, what type of Braille PDA do you use? Is this for study, work or private use? 2. Do you import information onto your PDA and if so, in what format? i.e. MS word, RTF, etc. 3. What would you say are the most commonly used Braille PDA's within the UK? This should start things off. I hope that as many of you as possible can respond to this. This is work related, but I can assure you that everything that you say does not get passed on to anybody else and full confidentiality is respected. Thanks in advance Ian. iancbev@xxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:iancbev@xxxxxxxxxxx> MSN <mailto:ianbev72@xxxxxxxxxxx> ianbev72@xxxxxxxxxxx Skype bevers01 ib@xxxxxxxxxx ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: ** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** and in the Subject line type ** unsubscribe ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the ** immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] ** or send a message, to ** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq __________ NOD32 1889 (20061129) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: ** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** and in the Subject line type ** unsubscribe ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the ** immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] ** or send a message, to ** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: ** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** and in the Subject line type ** unsubscribe ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the ** immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] ** or send a message, to ** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: ** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** and in the Subject line type ** unsubscribe ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the ** immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] ** or send a message, to ** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq __________ NOD32 1890 (20061129) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: ** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** and in the Subject line type ** unsubscribe ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the ** immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] ** or send a message, to ** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: ** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** and in the Subject line type ** unsubscribe ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the ** immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] ** or send a message, to ** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq __________ NOD32 1894 (20061130) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: ** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** and in the Subject line type ** unsubscribe ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the ** immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] ** or send a message, to ** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq