[access-uk] Re: Anyone on this list using a Mac with Tiger?

The success of VoiceOver will be in it's future long term development not 
necessarily in it's present state as it is now.  It will take money and time 
to keep this project going forward so VoiceOver will have to be more than a 
section 508 buster.  It is useable, though I think this aspect needs 
improving before you get levels of instinctive interaction that you would 
get with may of the Windows screen readers (all of which have had many more 
development hours in them).  A culture of accessibility would have to exist 
in the Mac domain in a way that it doesn't just at the moment.

People may feel the Main Menu article was good, but it didn't even scratch 
the surface, what about using Finder with VoiceOver.  One of the main issues 
which Ray mentioned in a post was the eschewing of keyboard navigation, 
which means using VoiceOver with anything serious is quite unlike that of 
Windows.  On Mac a lot more things are not available via "Keyboard focus" as 
VoiceOver likes to call it (Jaws equivolent of PC cursor), like being able 
to tab to something in a window, instead you need to use the VoiceOver focus 
which can travel anywhere and then you can interact with that item.  When 
you use Finder you start to get some kind of flavour for what screen reading 
with VoiceOver is like.  It's not only very different to what you learn in 
Windows but also occassionally has areas that really can trip you up.  You 
can find yourself drifting out of windows that you were using cursor keys in 
to end up in the one to the right if you happen to press a right arrow. 
Then try navigating back to your sidebar where you can quickly select 
different aspects of your Mac.  I found this difficultm and imagine others 
will find it really quite frustrating at first.

Perhaps Windows users see a rosy garden over the fence, but having brought a 
Mac I brought one of the few Mac orientated magazines to see how the other 
half live.  One story in this months issue was about a Mac OS update for the 
64bit systems which disabled hundreds of software titles on users machines. 
Many software support lines were besuiged by users whose software simply 
stopped working after the Apple update.  Some software dvelopers producing 
temporary patches that disabled 64bit until a solution could be found for 
the problem.  In another part of this mag was a featured user letter which 
essentially suggested that the kind of things the Mac used to do well with 
Fonts for DTP type tasks was now compromised by the new Mac OS X operating 
system and that too much attention being paid to gimmicks in OS 10.4 that 
took away from improving it for ordinary tasks.

I hope this may give some insight into the Mac world for those interested in 
the thread and give it a bit of richness in debate.

Regards.

Tristram Llewellyn
Sight and Sound Technology
Technical Support
www.sightandsound.co.uk

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ray's Home" <rays-home@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 8:51 AM
Subject: [access-uk] Re: Anyone on this list using a Mac with Tiger?


Well, as so often happens here, Andrew's original question has morphed 
somewhat, into a screen reader/narrator/who likes Apple computers anyway - 
sort of debate!  Its all useful and interesting too.  I hope my reflections 
might add a little to the debate.

I am not at all sure I agree with Peter's likening of Speakover to Narrator. 
Very rare I fire up narrator, but I am sure that does nothing outside of 
reading the desktop, menus, dialogues etc, which is all that its meant to 
do.

Interestingly, one screen reader vendor told me at SV that the Apple screen 
reader was mis-conceived and they shouldn't have gone further than MS has 
done with Narrator.  He was less than optimistic about the sort of support 
Apple could, or would give users who ran into problems.  Well, its tempting 
to say, 'he would say that, wouldn't he?'  (A saying that originated with an 
unvirtuous lady who lived not far from me in the sixties - but I digress!

Rather like this list, the Apple Visionaries list is most likely a very 
active source of support.  I wonder what experiences Apple users have had 
when phoning Apple support?  Certainly, the tremendous apparent cost 
advantage is going to weigh increasingly with us VI users, especially when 
you consider another of Peter's remarks about SMA's.  I do wonder if this 
first release of Tiger was indeed rushed out, to meet the commitment of 
being included in the Tiger release.  The next upgrade should be very 
interesting.

I think we must always remember that those who review such products as 
Tiger's screen reader can hardly escape some element of personal bias and 
preference.  If they come from a certain background i.e. the music and 
multi-media world, they  are tremendously biased and in love with their Macs 
and won't here a decent word said for Microsoft!  Its almost a matter of 
honour with those working in the very image conscious media world NOT to use 
anything else.

Meanwhile, back in the more pedestrian world of office apps, those of us in 
the VI world who have hardly had any option but to use Windows have much to 
thank MS for over the years - as well as a good deal to fume about!  Windows 
from the start had , thanks to Bill Gates, keyboard support;  something the 
Mac eschewed for a very long time.  What couldn't be done with a mouse 
wasn't worth doing, sort of attitude.  On the other hand, I feel that 
Windows 9x was a terrible run around;   if only we could have gone from 3x 
straight to XP;  but then MS had its own strategies, and had to finally 
ensure that IBM wasn't a force to be reckoned with.  Yes, politics plays its 
part, like it or not.

There are essential differences in detail and philosophy between Mac and 
Windows, and the desktop metaphor and find tools have very different ways of 
working, and that's just for starters.  Also, and I'd like to know if this 
has relevance for Speakover users, the Apple OS has Apple Script, which can 
do a lot to enable you to create your own keyboard shortcuts and a good deal 
else.  I would say, in the end, you must judge the competing Apple/MS 
systems within their own terms as OS's, and how well and effectively they 
get the job done.  Its hard for anyone to put themselves outside the frame 
of reference of what they have become familiar with, but one has to try and 
do this if one is to be fair and accurate in an assessment of what it is the 
competitors do and how well they do it.

Ray

Personal emails:  Email me at
mailto:ray-48@xxxxxxxx

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Matthews"

Not only this, but there wouldn't be the worry of keeping up with an SMA. As
I understand it, updates to the Voiceover software would be part of the OS
update, which stands to reason I guess.

Cheers,

Mark

Mark Matthews

-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Peter Logue

I'll like the idea too. If only the voice was better. I wish Jerry could
have done the demo with an A T T  voice or something half decent. I like the
idea of a stable OS, as my windows, or windows slash jaws, crashes on a
regular basis, alt F4 on any given program and I risk losing jaws in the
process. I can pretty much guarantee that I can't go two full days without
needing to reboot. And please don't anyone advise on Wineyes. Smiles.

Peter



-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Andrew Hodgson

Hi all,

I will be buying (probably) a Mac Mini in the coming days and really do look
forward to trying it out.



** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:-
** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
** and in the Subject line type
** unsubscribe
** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the
** immediately-following link:-
** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq]
** or send a message, to
** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq


** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:-
** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
** and in the Subject line type
** unsubscribe
** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the
** immediately-following link:-
** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq]
** or send a message, to
** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq

Other related posts: