FreeLists / si-list / [SI-LIST] Re: fiber-weave effect alive and well?

["Lee Ritchey" <leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Actually, Asia is where the flat weaves are most available.  The reason
isn't SI, but rather uniform glass distribution for laser drilling.  Either
way, we'll take it.  One weave that is easy to get in Aisa is 1086 which
looks almost exactly like 3313.

If you look at the photos of these weaves on page 109 of my second book you
can see what the problem is with 106 and 1080 glass.

One way to make sure these weaves become readily available is to keep
asking for them.

Lee


> [Original Message]
> From: <mediwheel_js@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <jeff.loyer@xxxxxxxxx>; <mark.hinton@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Cc: si-list <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: 12/3/2007 9:23:21 AM
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: fiber-weave effect alive and well?
>
> Jeff,
>
> Some suppliers have been very successfull with material orientation.
> Testing has been very positive on lot to lot basis.  So the climate is
changing in Asia.
> Most US companies are very reluctant, however soon they'll change.
> The cost of the lost material is insignificant compared to gerber
rotation.  And the panel 
> available thru this process will surprise you :).
>
> jack ~
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: "Loyer, Jeff" <jeff.loyer@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: mark.hinton@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Cc: si-list <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Monday, December 3, 2007 8:08:00 AM
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: fiber-weave effect alive and well?
>
> Mark,
> For a low-volume test PCB, why don't you tweak the artwork 10 degrees?
>
> Jeff Loyer
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of HINTON,MARK
> Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 2:48 PM
> To: leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Cc: si-list
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: fiber-weave effect alive and well?
>
> Lee,
>
> Have you tested 2116 glass yet?  I'm doing a low-volume test PCB, and I
> may have to choose between 2116 or a high-cost special order of 3113.
> If you haven't tested it yet, would you venture an educated guess on how
> it would perform?  I've got pretty wide traces (9.5 mils).
>
> Thank you,
> Mark
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Lee Ritchey
> Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 11:23 AM
> To: Scott McMorrow; Perry.Qu@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Cc: si-list
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: fiber-weave effect alive and well?
>
> The weave I document is 3313 glass.  It is widely used in Asia and is a
> stock weave from Isola.  We just completed testing on 2113 weave and
> obtained similar results.  The two thin weaves that are at the root of
> the
> problem are 106 and 1080.  3313 has not been widely used by US
> fabricators,
> I suspect because designers have been asking for the thinnest possible
> laminates and that is why 1080 and 106 are used most  often in the US.
> You
> don't get 3313 and 2113 here unless you stick to your guns and insist on
> it.  When you do, there are no real problems.
>
> We've just completed testing two designs with 48 ports of 10 GE with
> superb
> results.  One used 2113 and the other 3313.
>
> 7628 is about as coarse as the cloth used to make levis.  Not a good
> choice.
>
> Lee
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Scott McMorrow <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <Perry.Qu@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Cc: si-list <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Date: 9/14/2007 1:21:15 PM
> > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: fiber-weave effect alive and well?
> >
> > Perry
> > Fiber-weave effects are alive and well, and IMO should be considered
> by=3D20
> > every designer concerned with 6 Gbps or higher differential serial
> data=3D20
> > communications channels on PCBs, backplanes, and single-ended =
> skew=3D20
> > controlled parallel buses.  Jeff's paper is real life, building
> upon=3D20
> > about 5 years of good research at Intel.  The method that is used
> is=3D20
> > quite valid and will be seen in real designs.  The Intel research
> is=3D20
> > able to better characterize weave skew using physical nyquist sampling
>
> > techniques.  Yes, with different trace jogs you will see all sorts
> of=3D20
> > potential alignments, but in the worst case you will still find
> that=3D20
> > traces can have significant lengths of worst case fiber weave=3D20
> > alignment.  If you are trying to design systems with 1000's of=3D20
> > differential pairs, there is a statistical certainty that one or more
> of=3D20
> > those pairs will have skew close to the absolute worst case, if =
> not=3D20
> > designed to compensate for laminate weave anisotropy.
> >
> > The problem is most pronounced with weaves that have large holes
> without=3D20
> > fiber in the weave pattern, but you will also see issues with =
> core=3D20
> > materials that are often constructed with large diameter fibers,
> like=3D20
> > 7628 material. The fiberglass the Lee proposes to use does have
> some=3D20
> > benefits, however, it does not totally eliminate the fiber weave=3D20
> > problem.  It reduces it to a lower level.  Unfortunately, it is not
> a=3D20
> > widely manufactured laminate weave.
> >
> > There are patented techniques for improving weave-induced skew,
> which=3D20
> > must be licensed.  There are also some non-patented techniques,
> which=3D20
> > may also be used that are not quite as effective as the patented=3D20
> > techniques, but nevertheless can be used to design robust systems. =
> =3D20
> > There is also some silicon IP that can be used to automatically=3D20
> > compensate for skew, and is finding it's way into test
> instrumentation.
> >
> >
> > regards,
> >
> > Scott
> >
> > Scott McMorrow
> > Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
> > 121 North River Drive
> > Narragansett, RI 02882
> > (401) 284-1827 Business
> > (401) 284-1840 Fax
> >
> > http://www.teraspeed.com
> >
> > Teraspeed(r) is the registered service mark of
> > Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
> >
> >
> >
> > QU Perry wrote:
> > > I would be interested to see a link as well.
> > >
> > > Jeff's paper on DesignCon2007 is convincing to me that this is
> something
> > > we need to pay attention. Real life design will probably not be as
> bad
> > > as the theoretical estimate since most of the diff pair routing we
> have
> > > on the PCB is not likely to run a long length non-stop in parallel
> with
> > > edge. The "jog" as is called in the paper is very common due to vias
> etc
> > > and pretty random.
> > >
> > > Also from the data we got from PCB vendor, it appears that thinner
> > > dielectric substrate the worse fibre weave effect as the gap between
> the
> > > fiber is larger. Has this been looked at ?
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > Perry
> > >
> > >
> =3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D=
> 3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3
> D=3D
> 3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D
> =3D3D3D=3D3D
> > > =3D
> =3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D=
> 3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3
> D=3D
> 20
> > >
> > > Perry Qu=3D3D20
> > >
> > > Design & Qualification, Alcatel-Lucent Canada Inc.
> > >
> > > 600 March Road, Ottawa ON, K2K 2E6, Canada=3D3D20
> > >
> > > DID: 613-7846720  Fax: 613-5993642=3D3D20
> > >
> > > Email: perry.qu@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx=3D3D20
> > >
> > >
> =3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D=
> 3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3
> D=3D
> 3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D
> =3D3D3D=3D3D
> > > =3D
> =3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D=
> 3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3
> D=3D
> 20
> > >
> > > =3D3D20
> > >
> > >  =3D20
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=3D3D20
> > >> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of=3D3D20
> > >> Aubrey_Sparkman@xxxxxxxx
> > >> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 1:59 PM
> > >> To: leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; rdudek@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx;=3D3D20
> > >> si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: fiber-weave effect alive and well?
> > >> =3D3D20
> > >> Would you like to share a link?=3D3D3D20
> > >> =3D3D20
> > >> =3D3D20
> > >> Aubrey Sparkman=3D3D3D20
> > >> Enterprise Engineering Signal Integrity Team=3D3D3D20 Dell,
> Inc.=3D3D3D20=3D3D20
> > >> Aubrey_Sparkman@xxxxxxxx=3D3D3D20
> > >> (512) 723-3592=3D3D3D20
> > >> "Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and=3D3D20
> > >> thinking what nobody else has thought." - Jonathan Swift
> > >> =3D3D20
> > >> =3D3D20
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=3D3D20
> > >> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > >> On Behalf Of Lee Ritchey
> > >> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 11:36 AM
> > >> To: Russell S. Dudek Jr.; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: fiber-weave effect alive and well?
> > >> =3D3D20
> > >> We already have a glass weave solution.  Check my column in=3D3D20
> > >> the April issue of Circuitree magazine.
> > >> =3D3D20
> > >> Lee Ritchey
> > >> =3D3D20
> > >> =3D3D20
> > >>    =3D20
> > >>> [Original Message]
> > >>> From: Russell S. Dudek Jr. <rdudek@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > >>> To: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > >>> Date: 9/12/2007 1:10:28 PM
> > >>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: fiber-weave effect alive and well?
> > >>>
> > >>> Steve,
> > >>> =3D3D3D20
> > >>> I agree, Fiber Weave Effect (FEW) has most certainly been=3D3D20
> > >>>      =3D20
> > >> confirmed by
> > >> such
> > >>    =3D20
> > >>> research.  However, there is a new change in the wind.  I=3D3D20
> > >>>      =3D20
> > >> have the=3D3D3D20=3D3D20
> > >>    =3D20
> > >>> unique opportunity, as a technical liaison, to enable a=3D3D20
> > >>>      =3D20
> > >> technology=3D3D3D20=3D3D20
> > >>    =3D20
> > >>> that may put
> > >>>      =3D20
> > >> an
> > >>    =3D20
> > >>> end to FWE as a consideration in high-speed designs.  We=3D3D20
> > >>>      =3D20
> > >> all know that
> > >> =3D3D20
> > >>    =3D20
> > >>> the crux of the matter is the glass weave and its effect on=3D3D20
> > >>>      =3D20
> > >> localized
> > >> Er.
> > >>    =3D20
> > >>> Either get ride of the reinforcement layer completely or
> more=3D3D3D20=3D3D20
> > >>> challenging change the fundamentals of the glass weave fabrication
> > >>>      =3D20
> > >> process (GWFP).
> > >>    =3D20
> > >>> =3D3D3D20
> > >>> We have taken the more challenging (and fun) approach and =3D
> have=3D3D20
> > >>> rocked=3D3D3D20 the fundamentals the GWFP.  I cannot disclose much
> the=3D3D20
> > >>> specifics of=3D3D3D20 the technology and our partners in such =3D
> an=3D3D20
> > >>>      =3D20
> > >> open forum. =3D3D20
> > >>    =3D20
> > >>> However, if=3D3D3D20 you are interested learning more feel =
> free=3D3D20
> > >>>      =3D20
> > >> to contact=3D3D20
> > >>    =3D20
> > >>> me and we can=3D3D3D20 get the proper NDAs in place to =3D
> facilitate=3D3D20
> > >>>      =3D20
> > >> such a discussion.
> > >>    =3D20
> > >>> =3D3D3D20
> > >>> RD
> > >>> =3D3D3D20
> > >>> Russell Dudek
> > >>> Technology Specialist
> > >>> Compunetics, Inc.
> > >>> 700 Seco Road
> > >>> Monroeville, PA 15146
> > >>> 412-858-6264
> > >>> rdudek@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >>> www.compunetics.com <http://www.compunetics.com/> =3D3D3D20
> > >>>
> > >>> To see where no one notices the contrast of white on white is =
> =3D3D
> > >>>      =3D20
> > > an=3D3D3D20=3D3D20
> > >  =3D20
> > >>> indispensable virtue of infinite potential.
> > >>>
> > >>> =3D3D3D20
> > >>>
> > >>>
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