FreeLists / si-list / [SI-LIST] Re: Insertion Loss of Passive Components

["ryansatrom" <ryan.satrom@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

John-

You are correct.  As an SI Engineer, it doesn't help my understanding 
to view a net as a filter.  But that doesn't make it invalid.

Thanks for the insight.

Ryan Satrom


--- In si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Hill, John" <John.Hill@...> wrote:
>
> Ryan,
> 
> I would summit to you that not all filters use lumped elements. 
Strip
> line filters are just lengths of coupled transmission lines and they
> make very good microware filters.=3D20
> 
> You can also consider a length of coupled transmission lines as two
> transmission lines with crosstalk. The vantage point depends a lot 
on if
> you are an SI engineer or an RF engineer.=3D20
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> John =3D20
> 
> John Hill
> Design Engineer
> TK  HOLDINGS INC  =3D20
> Electronics=3D20
> 27200 Haggerty Road  Suite B-12 =3D20
> Farmington Hills, MI 48331
> Office Phone: 248 699 2915
> Mobile Phone 248 765 3599
> 
> 
> 
> =3D20
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> The information in this email and attachments hereto may contain 
legally =3D
> privileged, proprietary or confidential information that is 
intended for =3D
> a particular recipient. If you are not the intended recipient(s), 
or the =3D
> employee or agent responsible for delivery of this message to the =3D
> intended recipient(s), you are hereby notified that any disclosure, 
=3D
> copying, distribution, retention or use of the contents of this e-
mail =3D
> information is prohibited and may be unlawful. When addressed to 
Takata =3D
> customers or vendors, any information contained in this e-mail is =3D
> subject to the terms and conditions in the governing contract, if =3D
> applicable. If you have received this communication in error, 
please =3D
> immediately notify us by return e-mail, permanently delete any =3D
> electronic copies of this communication and destroy any paper 
copies.
> ---------------------------------------
> -----Original Message-----
> 
> From: si-list-bounce@... [mailto:si-list-bounce@...]
> On Behalf Of ryansatrom
> Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 10:50 AM
> To: si-list@...
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Insertion Loss of Passive Components
> 
> All-
> 
> Thanks for your insight.  I resolved the issue.  To those who are=3D20
> interested, the differential trace model included one trace that 
was=3D20
> approximately 170mils longer than the other trace.  The connector=3D20
> launch, due to its geometry, had that same trace 170mils shorter 
than=3D20
> the other trace.  So when I measured differential insertion loss,=3D20
> there was a resonance due to the length mismatch on both of the=3D20
> subcircuits.  However, they pieced together and the resonance was=3D20
> removed, causing improved insertion loss.
> 
> John - I like your filter analogy, but I believe that the analogy=3D20
> breaks down when we become concerned about transmission lines (and 
EM=3D20
> waves) and not lumped elements.  It does little to feed our 
intuition=3D20
> as to how an electromagnetic wave travels down a trace.  It is an=3D20
> analog world, but it's also an electromagnetic world:)
> 
> --- In si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Hill, John" <John.Hill@> wrote:
> >
> > Ryan,
> >=3D20
> > Consider a filter, in the pass band the filter can have a lot of
> > inductors and capacitors between the source and the load, but the
> > insertion loss is low. This is because all of the inductances and
> > capacitances resonate together without changing the real value 
of=3D20
> the
> > impedance.
> >=3D20
> > Now consider the same filter in the stop band. The inductors and
> > capacitances do not resonate together and either changes the 
real=3D20
> value
> > of the filter or makes it very non-real.=3D3D3D20
> >=3D20
> > The point is that in the pass band the filter correctly matches 
the
> > source impedance to the load impedance and in the stop band the=3D20
> filter
> > deliberately miss-matches the impedances.=3D3D3D20
> >=3D20
> > Look at your circuit as a filter. Is it matching or miss-
matching=3D20
> the
> > source to the load? Remember digital signal are wide band 
signals.=3D20
> We
> > typically need to design our signal paths as low pass filters 
with=3D20
> high
> > cutoff frequencies.
> >=3D20
> > As we all know, it is an analog world.
> >=3D20
> > Best regards,
> >=3D20
> > John
> >=3D20
> > John Hill
> > Design Engineer
> > TK  HOLDINGS INC  =3D3D3D20
> > Electronics=3D3D3D20
> > 27200 Haggerty Road  Suite B-12 =3D3D3D20
> > Farmington Hills, MI 48331
> > Office Phone: 248 699 2915
> > Mobile Phone 248 765 3599
> >=3D20
> >=3D20
> > =3D3D3D20
> >=3D20
> > ---------------------------------------
> > The information in this email and attachments hereto may 
contain=3D20
> legally =3D3D3D
> > privileged, proprietary or confidential information that is=3D20
> intended for =3D3D3D
> > a particular recipient. If you are not the intended recipient
(s),=3D20
> or the =3D3D3D
> > employee or agent responsible for delivery of this message to the 
=3D
> =3D3D3D
> > intended recipient(s), you are hereby notified that any 
disclosure,=3D20
> =3D3D3D
> > copying, distribution, retention or use of the contents of this e-
> mail =3D3D3D
> > information is prohibited and may be unlawful. When addressed 
to=3D20
> Takata =3D3D3D
> > customers or vendors, any information contained in this e-mail is 
=3D
> =3D3D3D
> > subject to the terms and conditions in the governing contract, if 
=3D
> =3D3D3D
> > applicable. If you have received this communication in error,=3D20
> please =3D3D3D
> > immediately notify us by return e-mail, permanently delete any 
=3D3D3D
> > electronic copies of this communication and destroy any paper=3D20
> copies.
> > ---------------------------------------
> > -----Original Message-----
> >=3D20
> > From: si-list-bounce@ [mailto:si-list-bounce@]
> > On Behalf Of ryansatrom
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 3:49 PM
> > To: si-list@
> > Subject: [SI-LIST] Insertion Loss of Passive Components
> >=3D20
> > SI-Listers:
> >=3D20
> > I have set up a simulation and am very confused by the results. 
=3D20
> I=3D3D3D20
> > have a differential trace in series with a connector launch.
> >=3D20
> > I am getting very strange insertion loss results so I'm 
hoping=3D3D3D20
> > somebody could help advise me as to whether my model is wrong, 
or=3D20
> I=3D3D3D20
> > am wrong.
> >=3D20
> > When I view the differential insertion loss of the system 
(both=3D3D3D20
> > subcircuits in series), the loss is better (there is less loss)=3D20
> than=3D3D3D20
> > the differential insertion of the trace only.  Is this possible? 
=3D20
> I=3D3D3D20
> > always thought that it was impossible to improve the insertion=3D20
> loss=3D3D3D20
> > by adding a passive component.  And I think I still believe 
that,=3D20
> but=3D3D3D20
> > now I'm getting a little confused.
> >=3D20
> > It's also important to note that the single-ended insertion =3D
> loss=3D3D3D20
> > results seem to be as expected.  That is, the insertion loss of=3D20
> the=3D3D3D20
> > system is worse than the insertion loss of either 
individual=3D3D3D20
> > component.
> >=3D20
> > Is something occurring with the differential signal to allow it=3D20
> to=3D3D3D20
> > perform better?
> >=3D20
> > Please advise.  Thanks in advance for your response.
> >=3D20
> > Ryan Satrom
> > Everett Charles Technologies
> > ryan.satrom@
> >=3D20
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe from si-list:
> > si-list-request@ with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
> >=3D20
> > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
> > http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
> >=3D20
> > For help:
> > si-list-request@ with 'help' in the Subject field
> >=3D20
> > List FAQ wiki page is located at:
> >                 http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ
> >=3D20
> > List technical documents are available at:
> >                 http://www.si-list.org
> >=3D20
> > List archives are viewable at:    =3D3D3D20
> >             http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
> > or at our remote archives:
> >             http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
> > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
> >             http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe from si-list:
> > si-list-request@ with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
> >=3D20
> > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
> > http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
> >=3D20
> > For help:
> > si-list-request@ with 'help' in the Subject field
> >=3D20
> > List FAQ wiki page is located at:
> >                 http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ
> >=3D20
> > List technical documents are available at:
> >                 http://www.si-list.org
> >=3D20
> > List archives are viewable at:    =3D20
> >             http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
> > or at our remote archives:
> >             http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
> > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
> >             http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
> >
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from si-list:
> si-list-request@... with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
> 
> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
> http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
> 
> For help:
> si-list-request@... with 'help' in the Subject field
> 
> List FAQ wiki page is located at:
>                 http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ
> 
> List technical documents are available at:
>                 http://www.si-list.org
> 
> List archives are viewable at:    =3D20
>               http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
> or at our remote archives:
>               http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
>               http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from si-list:
> si-list-request@... with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
> 
> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
> http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
> 
> For help:
> si-list-request@... with 'help' in the Subject field
> 
> List FAQ wiki page is located at:
>                 http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ
> 
> List technical documents are available at:
>                 http://www.si-list.org
> 
> List archives are viewable at:     
>               http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
> or at our remote archives:
>               http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
>               http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
>


------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from si-list:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field

or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list

For help:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field

List FAQ wiki page is located at:
                http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ

List technical documents are available at:
                http://www.si-list.org

List archives are viewable at:     
                http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
or at our remote archives:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
                http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu