FreeLists / si-list / [SI-LIST] Re: EMI simulation tools at PCB level

[Julian Ferry <julian.ferry@xxxxxxxxxx>]

I think this is one of the funniest posts I have ever read anywhere!

Its just sad that there are so few people in the world who understand why
its so funny....

-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Kai Keskinen
Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 5:35 PM
To: Chris Cheng; 'Charles Grasso '; zhang_kun@xxxxxxxxxx;
si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: EMI simulation tools at PCB level

I think that this has not yet been done. Tools like FlowEMC are very good if
you know what is radiating inside/outside the mechanicals and for simulating
radiating/conducting structures. Tools like Allegro PCB SI (aka
SpecctraQuest) or Hyperlynx, ICX and others are a direct interface to the
schematic and pcb layout and are very good at simulating the signals
travelling on the striplines/microstrip and some even have good capability
to simulate SSN or ground bounce as well as predict emissions due to
differential mode (magnetic). Others are better at doing power delivery
simulation. Some try to integrate all these things. As far as I know, there
is no tool that integrates the SI/power tools with a logic level
timing/simulation tool that lets signals trigger at proper intervals and
frequencies and then computes the field emissions averaged over some time
interval. If you really wanted to, you could combine this with the IC level
simulation/package/logic tools to get a better level of granularity. Where
do you trade off complexity for  sufficient level of accuracy?

This sounds like a cool idea but only someone who writes computer games
combined with a team of engineers/mathematicians/programmers/physicists
could come up with the tool. The other requirements are an efficient/easy to
learn user interface/file/library system that allows you to
build/input/setup your models and conditions and then simulate in some kind
of reasonable execution time on a mid high level machine. I believe Jean-Luc
Picard's Enterprise had software that could do this. The holo deck could let
you see the 3-D fields switching in real time.

Perhaps some of the tools vendors could take up the challenge. A few of the
bigger guys have most of the required modules from chip level to board/small
system level. Something that simulated various busses with their associated
IC dynamic power draw,  with programmable fixed timing sequences that
integrated SI, SSN, ground bounce and power delivery, with full field
emissions in a structure/housing level EMC tool like FlowEMC that could also
predict common mode emissions on cables would be a pretty powerful tool! It
would also have to be affordable.



-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Cheng [mailto:Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 4:51 PM
To: 'Kai Keskinen'; Chris Cheng; 'Charles Grasso ';
zhang_kun@xxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re: EMI simulation tools at PCB level


Has this been done ? Or this is one of Einstein's thought experiment ? :-D
What if the peaks happen to related to this 100W multi-giga Hertz CPU I am
using ? Can SpecctraQuest or Hyperlynx predict that ahead of time for me ?

>If  you combined a tool like FlowEMC with a tool like SpecctraQuest or
>Hyperlynx, with a logic simulator that allowed you to exercise the
>board/system in a fully functional manner, so that the simulated ibis
>devices were triggering at the right timing intervals and sending their
>voltages/currents down the simulated tracks with the simulated
planes/shapes
>and sucking up and sourcing current through the simulated power delivery
>system, in the simulated housing/shelf/frame with the attached I/O and
power
>cables, you could in theory get some reasonably accurate emissions profiles
>for your board/housing/shelf/system if direct emissions from the chip
>packages were ignored. You would also need massive memory and cpu capacity.
>I apologize for the run on sentence.


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