FreeLists / si-list / [SI-LIST] Re: Loss tangent and Dielectric conductance

[Steve Corey <steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Yaping -- in the DesignCon 2001 paper that Eric Bogatin referenced earlier in
this thread, we separated dielectric loss and conductor loss in our TDR
measurements by extracting dielectric loss using a very wide trace, such that
conductor loss had a relatively small effect.  This gave us results that matched
well with the measured transmission line response, as well as known values for
loss tangent.  Since that paper we have refined the model and incorporated the
RLGC extraction portion of it into our software tool, and having tested the
extraction on a variety of materials and geometries, are convinced that we are
accurately modeling dielectric loss and conductor loss for transmission lines.

  -- Steve

 -------------------------------------------
 Steven D. Corey, Ph.D.
 Time Domain Analysis Systems, Inc.
 "The Interconnect Modeling Company."
 http://www.tdasystems.com

 email: steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 phone: (503) 246-2272
 fax:   (503) 246-2282
 -------------------------------------------



Yaping Zhou wrote:

> Ken:
>
> I think the most accurate way to measure dieletric constant is to use high-Q
> cavity. The cavity is calibrated first, then a small piece of material is
> put in. The resonance frequency shift and Q decrease are measure with VNA.
> The frequency shift can be related to the real part Er' and the Q decrease
> is related to the imaginary part Er''.  Loss tangent is the ratio of Er' and
> Er'' .
>
> A metallic trace has to be added for TDR measurment. By doing so we
> introduce additional conductor loss, which usually dominates dielectric
> loss. Is there a way to separate conductor loss and dielectric loss in TDR
> measurement?
>
> Yaping
> --
> **************************************
> Yaping Zhou
> Motorola Semiconductor Products Sector
> Final Manufacturing Technology Center
> Ed Bluestein, Austin, Texas
> **************************************
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ken Cantrell" <Ken.Cantrell@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <omism@xxxxxxxxx>; <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 12:14 PM
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Loss tangent and Dielectric conductance
>
> >
> > Pete, Ozgur, et. al,
> > That's the right formula, but the trick is in actually knowing what the
> loss
> > tangent is.  Vendor data for standard formulations (FR40X, GTEK, Rogers,
> > etc.)can be quite divergent from TDR derived permittivity (then up scaling
> > the permittivty to the frequency of operation), and fitting the loss
> tangent
> > to the dielectric portion of the total measured loss - Vout/Vin (dB).
> > Anyone know of any good texts or literature sources on the subject?
> > Ken
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Ozgur Misman
> > Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 9:38 AM
> > To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Loss tangent and Dielectric conductance
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Actually formula do exist,
> > I must have missed the capacitance in tmy previous E-mail
> > let me rewrite it as
> > Gd=2*pi*f *tand*C (capacitance)
> > C=Er*Co
> > Co= Eo A/d
> >
> > Mick is right in saying that the dielectric loss is a property of the
> > material and conductance depends on the circuit as well. That link is in
> > the capacitance term.
> > The formula is derived assuming a resistance in parallel with
> > capaciatance.and conductance is defined as 1/resistance.
> > Hope this clarifies
> >
> > Ozgur Misman
> > ---------------------- Forwarded by Ozgur Misman/CHAZ/AAWW on 11/01/2001
> > 09:34 AM ---------------------------
> >
> >
> > 11/01/2001 08:51 AM
> > Ozgur Misman - Chandler - 5080
> > Sr Engineer
> > 01 We've Just Begun
> >
> >
> >
> > To:   plaflamm@xxxxxxxx
> > cc:   si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> >
> > Subject:  Re: [SI-LIST] Loss tangent and Dielectric conductance  (Document
> >       link: Ozgur Misman)
> >
> > Hi Peter,
> > I think the for mula is :   Gd (conductance)=2*pi*frequency*tand(loss
> > tangent)* Eo (permittivity of the free space;8.854e-12f/m)* dielectric
> > constant;Er
> > Ozgur Misman
> > Amkor Technology
> >
> >
> >
> > Peter LaFlamme <plaflamm@xxxxxxxx>@freelists.org on 11/01/2001 06:45:13 AM
> >
> > Please respond to plaflamm@xxxxxxxx
> >
> > Sent by:  si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> >
> >
> > To:   si-list <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > cc:
> >
> >
> > Subject:  [SI-LIST] Loss tangent and Dielectric conductance
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi SI Folks,
> > I would like to know the relationship between Loss Tangent and Dielectric
> > loss. In other words, If I know the "loss tangent" at a given frequency
> for
> > a particular dielectric what is the formula to convert this into the
> > Dielectric conductance(Gd) ?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Peter
> >
> > --
> > Peter LaFlamme
> >
> > Applied Micro Circuits Corp.
> > Staff System Applications Engineer
> > 200 Minuteman Rd, 3rd Floor
> > Andover, MA 01810
> >
> > 978-247-8470 phone
> > 978-623-0055 Fax
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe from si-list:
> > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
> >
> > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
> > http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
> >
> > For help:
> > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
> >
> > List archives are viewable at:
> >           http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
> > or at our remote archives:
> >           http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
> > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
> >           http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe from si-list:
> > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
> >
> > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
> > http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
> >
> > For help:
> > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
> >
> > List archives are viewable at:
> > http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
> > or at our remote archives:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
> > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
> >   http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe from si-list:
> > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
> >
> > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
> > http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
> >
> > For help:
> > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
> >
> > List archives are viewable at:
> > http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
> > or at our remote archives:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
> > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
> >   http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
> >
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from si-list:
> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
>
> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
> http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
>
> For help:
> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
>
> List archives are viewable at:
>                http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
> or at our remote archives:
>                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
>                http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
>

------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from si-list:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field

or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list

For help:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field

List archives are viewable at:     
                http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
or at our remote archives:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages 
Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
                http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu