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[lit-ideas] Re: Moderate Muslims

From: "Judith Evans" <judithevans1@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 20:18:18 +0100
Lawrence, Simon's argument was not an example of a fallacy.  He may have been 
wrong, but his reasoning was not an example (IMO) of the Fallacy of Hasty 
Generalization. The points at issue have been explained to you.

I don't want to have to say that yet again, so will stop discussing this


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Lawrence Helm 
  To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 7:46 PM
  Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Moderate Muslims


  Judy:



  Well you are wrong.  I have described Simon's argument in great detail.  No 
one objected.  Simon didn't say, 'Hey wait a minute.  That's not what I mean."  
Simon's argument, the argument I described as Simon's was fallacious.  I 
understood it perfectly well.  Since it was fallacious and you think it was not 
either you don't understand the nature of a fallacy or you haven't understood 
the nature of the arguments here.



  I have gone into all the issues presented in extreme detail spending time on 
this that I would rather spend elsewhere.  Your sitting in our coliseum with 
one arm through Simon's produces nothing to help him.  You merely hold your 
other arm out and turn your thumb down.  Maybe Simon is pleased, but the 
British Empire has collapsed. Thumbs are not arguments any more.  



  To reiterate (trying to subdue my annoyance), Simon came after me wanting me 
to admit that there were more extremists and fewer moderates as a result of the 
Iraq war.  I asked his evidence and he referred to two terrorist incidents and 
an unnumbered number of interviews he listened to.  His "evidence" isn't really 
evidence.  It is anecdotal in nature.  Two terrorist attacks?  There were at 
least two terrorist attacks before Iraq so we can rule that out as evidence.



  Interviews?  Even if the interviews Simon listened to were by terrorists that 
said they became terrorists because America removed Saddam, how many were 
there?  I gathered under ten and so used that number.  Ten terrorists say they 
became terrorists because America and Britain removed Saddam.  There were at 
least ten people who became terrorists before Saddam was a gleam in Bush and 
Blair's eyes.  We don't care what they think.  All we want to know for purposes 
of Simon's argument is whether more became terrorists or extremists as a result 
of the Iraq war than became extremists before the Iraq war.



  Had Simon said, "I believe there are more extremists as a result of the Iraq 
war, he would have been on safe ground.  He may be wrong, but he is entitled to 
his opinion even if it is wrong.  



  What Simon is not permitted to do is to insist that someone else accept his 
opinion unless the evidence demands that acceptance.  Simon thought he had such 
evidence and insisted on several occasions that I must accept his argument 
which he deemed irrefutable.  



  I did not go after Simon to point out the flaws in his thinking.  He came 
after me and presented his thinking as persuasive.   His belief was that 
quantitatively the Iraq war increased extremists and decreased moderates.  
Quantities are things you can count or approximate with a rationale of some 
sort.  In Aerospace, for example, the perusal of a lot of data convinced those 
involved, both the government and manufacturers, that there was a 
correspondence between the weight of a product and its cost.  The Air Force 
insisted that all proposals for changes include the weight so they could 
compare it to the cost.  For some new proposals it was sufficient to know the 
weight of the change only, in order to obtain a "ball park" cost before going 
ahead.  Thus I would never argue that only direct quotes could provide the data 
for costing a change.



  Getting back to Simon's assertions however, he has never advanced reasons for 
them beyond the anecdotes he referred to: two terrorist attacks and a small 
number of interviews caused him to evaluate the quantities of moderates and 
extremists and to determine that one has gone up and the other down since the 
Iraq war.  We know from the description of the Fallacy of Hasty Conclusion that 
Simon is guilty of it.  His claims about the quantities of moderates and 
extremists are not based upon a large enough sampling to make any legitimate 
claims.  My responses to him do not bear upon his right to be wrong.  They bear 
upon his demand that I be wrong with him. And your snide and snotty snippets 
aid and abet him in this demand.



  Lawrence




------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] 
On Behalf Of Judith Evans
  Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 9:57 AM
  To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Moderate Muslims



  I am hammering away at you, Lawrence, because I believe you have failed to 
understand the nature of the arguments here. 



  Judy

    ----- Original Message ----- 

    From: Lawrence Helm 

    To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 

    Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 5:45 PM

    Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Moderate Muslims



    Judy:



    You are hammering me in such a way as to make me think you are in Simon's 
state: unable to appreciate or understand the significance and nature of a 
fallacy, and by implication, the significance and nature of Logic.  Perhaps the 
practice of Logic is becoming a lost art in this modern world.  To be free of 
the rules of logic seems to encourage many to make the most outlandish and 
ridiculous statements and draw the most absurd conclusions.  The Sam Harris 
article quoted by Eric provides several cogent and alarming of examples of the 
danger such faulty thinking can cause. 
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-harris18sep18,0,1897169.story 



    Lawrence









    -----Original Message-----
    From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Judith Evans
    Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 9:29 AM
    To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
    Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Moderate Muslims



    LH> >>I was not able to determine that there were any moderates 

    > in the Middle East because neither Omar nor I could find 

    > hide nor hair of them.

    > 

    EY> Let me repost an excerpt from this article to see if it can 

    > advance the discussion.



    Lawrence will be able to tell you which Fallacy you committed in

    assuming this helps us determine whether there are any moderates

    in the Middle East



    (lol)



    Judy Evans, Cardiff
References:

[lit-ideas] Re: Moderate Muslims
From: Lawrence Helm
[lit-ideas] Re: Moderate Muslims

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