FreeLists / haiku-web / [haiku-web] Re: Trac (reevaluated)

[Michael Phipps <mphipps1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Jorge G. Mare (a.k.a. Koki) wrote:
> On Sat, 2006-06-10 at 00:43 +0200, Waldemar Kornewald wrote:
> > Jorge G. Mare (a.k.a. Koki) wrote:
> > > Sorry for the rant. Maybe I am missing something, but in spite of Haiku
> > > being an open source project, I find it to be closed in the sense that
> > > it does not seem to be organized to funnel the motivation of potential
> > > contributors into tangible contributions.
> > >
> > > If you really want to grow the community, I think that fixing that
> > > aspect of the organization is much more important for its success than
> > > which CMS packaged is better than which.
> > The project is currently very losely organized. Who wants to do something just
> > does it. I really wish Michael would add a news item that we're searching for
> > web developers who can help with RailFrog or maybe also Trac (if Charlie and
> > Miakel need help).
>
> The fact that you are relying on the founder of the project to post a
> simple piece of news tells how badly you need more help (Michael, please
> take no offense). But you are not going to get the much needed new blood
> with a "who wants to do something just does it" approach. This may work
> for people that are very familiar with the project, and know their way
> around the community, but not for the newcomers that you need if you
> want to solve your chronic shortage of resources.

Let me start with "no offense taken". It is pretty tough to offend me. :D

Here is the issue, in a nutshell, and this will give you (hopefully) the 
whole overview that you are looking for.

Our current website is custom coded in PHP. We have more than outgrown 
its capabilities and Kurtis (who very kindly wrote the whole thing for 
us) doesn't believe that it is salvageable. There are a number of things 
that we want to do that the current design doesn't support, including 
easy to edit pages, single login, etc.

That's the reason for the change (although I am leaving the lack 
somewhat vague).

Waldemar and I have looked at dozens of packages. I honestly don't think 
that anyone has a clue how to build a CMS. These things were written by 
people who know, understand and HATE usability. They are almost as bad 
as they could be.

So, honestly, we are sort of at an impasse. We continue to look at stuff 
and we wait for Railfrog. It seems to be headed in a better direction 
than anything else I have seen, but it is hard to judge on so little.

As far as Trac... Honestly, the devs all seem to love Bugzilla. They use 
it, they love it, they aren't really inclined to change, as far as I can 
see. Waldemar and I don't think that it is very usable for non-devs. I 
don't personally see the need to press the issue, atm, because there are 
more than enough bugs to work on (that is to say, the devs are maxed out 
and a better bug tracker with gazillions more bugs wouldn't make Haiku 
any better right now).

I am interested in seeing what Trac can do, but, honestly, there is *NO* 
guarantee that it will be used. I haven't been a huge fan of the other 
Trac implementations that I have seen, but I know that it can easily be 
a implementation/configuration issue.

As far as writing copy, I haven't looked much at what is on the wiki. 
What I have looked at seems to be pretty good. I like the idea that 
someone other than me wants to add content to the website. Obviously 
that stuff needs review. I don't quite understand why people are more 
willing to edit a wiki than to send an email, but I guess what is, is.

I think that you (Koki) have it exactly right about translation - it is 
something that needs to be prepared for at the beginning and executed 
toward the end.  I have never had any lack of people volunteering to 
translate, I have had no way to get them working on it. That is indeed 
part of the impetus for doing this.

As far as being open, part of the problem is that we are too 
distributed. We have some stuff about this in (this) list, some in 
private emails (from before this list existed), some in wiki, etc. That 
is another goal that I have for the new website - to tie all of the 
communication methods together so that there are no separate 
forums/wikis/email lists - that everything is tied together so that 
there is one and only one data stream for each area of Haiku. When a 
wiki page changes, folks who have signed up for email will get a link or 
a page in their email; it will be available via the website and a forum 
entry will be posted. One data stream, whether you like push or pull.

So, to summerize:
1) We need a new website management system. We can't find one we like 
and can use.
2) Bugzilla has usability issues for end users and Waldemar has taken on 
the task of putting together a Trac demo to show the devs in hopes of 
convincing them that it is drastically better.



> > If you want to help and think that you can write text that has a high
> > information/noise ratio please help us. At:
> > http://www.haiku-os.org/wiki/index.php?title=Website_Team
> > you can find the list of pages that must be finished for the new website. Look
> > what is missing and write the text. I can try to make suggestions.
>
> I could write reasonably good copy (although English is not my mother
> tongue); I am also sure that there is talent out there that could do a
> good job; you may need more than one person.
>
> But before you start writing copy, there needs to be some sort of
> discussion (brainstorming if you will) to come up at least with an
> outline that meets the goals of the message that the project wants to
> convey through its website. Good copy can only be written with an
> overall understanding of the message that you are trying to convey.
>
> I see there is an outline under "Layout" in the wiki, but has this been
> thoroughly discussed? Is the leadership of the project happy with it?
>
> > For example, the introduction does not really satisfy me. The "what 
> > does easy to
> > use mean?" section should probably be moved to the top of the Human Interface
> > Guidelines (as a simple summary). Also, we might add a screenshot. Basically,
> > the intro should state:
> > * what is Haiku?
> > * who is developing it?
> > * which problems does current software have?
> > * what are our goals?
> > * how do we want to achieve this?
> >
> > There's a lot of work, but I want high-quality (and *short*) content. Not
> > something that a 14-years-old child slapped together on a weekend. This is the
> > reason why we're not crying for help.
>
> If there is a lot of work, then you SHOULD be crying for help! Why
> assume that only 14 year olds will volunteer? For that matter, why
> assume that a 14 year old cannot do a good job?! If you want to attract
> talent that can give you the quality that you want, you need to engage
> potential contributors a bit more intelligently, not just assume that
> only incapable people will volunteer; the "who wants to do something
> just does it" approach will just not cut it.
>
> BTW, I wish there were more teenagers involved in Haiku. They have
> plenty of time and energy, and many of them have a lot of potential
> talent that, with the right guidance, can be untapped for the good of
> the project. I would not underestimate them.
>
> > It's clear that as long as the English content is not finished we can't 
> > work on tranlations.
>
> It may be that I did not articulate myself well enough about this. I am
> not talking about translation; that would come later. I am asking if in
> the design of the new site you have taken into consideration the ability
> to easily localize content. I make this question in the hope that
> whatever solution is chosen, it does have provisions for content in
> languages other than English at the very least, so that actually adding
> support for more languages does not require another website renewal
> (that could take a long time to materialize). I say this not in my own
> interest, but in that of HAIKU, if the project really wants the site to
> become the central focus for all HAIKU related information, that is. I
> would rather see resources put into accommodating localization of
> content than migrating from Bugzilla to Trac which, I have to agree with
> Axel and Michael here, should be lower priority as what we have does
> work adequately and there is no compelling reason to change; I think
> putting all the resources of the team into creating the new site.
>
> I realize some people are working on something, and their work is really
> appreciated; but very little transpires to the outside world. How about
> putting the forums to use to communicate? How about being a bit more
> open? How about some team building? How about some teamwork?
>
> Koki
>
> PS: So, who are the web team members? What do they do?
>
> PS2: I see that "Qunu for end-user support" has been added to the
> website wiki. Is this officially endorsed by HAIKU?
>
>
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